Where-to when your ISPs and TDR can't help?

Forums › New Zealand Broadband › Where-to when your ISPs and TDR can't help?

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3892 posts

Uber Geek

#554485 6-Dec-2011 14:50

cyril7: Hi, Dons example is a little over complicated, Cyril

Opps...

I was looking at street cables for my area recently, I didn't even consider pillar follow on.

Do I get my free chocolate fish now Cyril?

Edit: I should add that there can be joints in any of the pillars leading up to your house on your pair as well. So testing the pair properly and doing a proper visual inspection may help.

As I'm sure you can guess... a busy faults tech is not going to want to spend all day checking every single pillar to find this fault... but it may come to that to fix it depending on how many decades of poor care and attention has gone on down the road :(

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ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554495 6-Dec-2011 15:11

Aaaah that clarifies.

Yeah basically we're down a small right-of-way and talking to a couple of the technicians, there's been basically no maintenance since everything went in ~20 years ago (House is coming up 21 years old, and all in the area were built around the same time).

Presumably this is one of the things I can get Slingshot to get Telecom to check?

DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#554502 6-Dec-2011 15:18

ChillingSilence: Presumably this is one of the things I can get Slingshot to get Telecom to check?

No, this is one of the things you get Slingshot to get Chorus to check for you. :)

Or... you could just cancel your SlingShot account and connect with Telecom and see if they have more pull with Chorus than SlingShot do. :)

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ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554510 6-Dec-2011 15:30

I figure that they probably do but two things are stopping me:
1) Data caps, bang-for-buck
2) Starting over again with a new ISP, going through the motions ("Have you tried turning your router off for 5 minutes then back on again")

DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#554518 6-Dec-2011 15:44

ChillingSilence: I figure that they probably do but two things are stopping me:
1) Data caps, bang-for-buck
2) Starting over again with a new ISP, going through the motions ("Have you tried turning your router off for 5 minutes then back on again")

Oh, I'm sorry, that comment wasn't actually directed at you ;)

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ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554522 6-Dec-2011 15:53

OK so I should try out the DMT Tools, will that show me this?

Or should I be going back to Slingshot to suggest they get a tech to look at this, look at replacing the line-card, and / or look at replacing some or all of the cable between the demarc and the cabinet?

It's also worth mentioning that I've got to know the guy who lives right next door to the cabinet, he's currently only attaining 14-15mbps (It fluctuates a little) which I thought was a little odd. He's also had his house wiring re-done. He doesn't however have the disconnection issues that I do. Neither does the neighbour out the front of my place. Just figured I'd mention that, in case it helps at all...

cyril7

9058 posts

Uber Geek

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#554527 6-Dec-2011 16:04

Hi, DMT will show you the bin loading, if there is a tap then you will get a distinct hole in the spectrum. Sounds to me that you and your neighbour even though you are directly beside the cabinet the feeder from the cabinet goes for wander up the otherside of the street then back to you, often the way. Your attenuation of 12dB indicates a cable length of around 800m, which should be good for a sync rate of 15-16Mb/s all things going well.

Cyril

Quic Broadband

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ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554535 6-Dec-2011 16:10

Yeah I'm not even 800m from the cabinet if you go from the cabinet, right to the opposite end of the streets that it services, then double back all the way to my place. Basically taking the least direct route possible, it's still well under 800m.

I'll grab that software tonight when I get home around 5PM and give it a whirl straight away.

Appreciate your help, thanks very much guys :)

DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#554556 6-Dec-2011 16:44

cyril7: Hi, DMT will show you the bin loading, if there is a tap then you will get a distinct hole in the spectrum. Sounds to me that you and your neighbour even though you are directly beside the cabinet the feeder from the cabinet goes for wander up the otherside of the street then back to you, often the way. Your attenuation of 12dB indicates a cable length of around 800m, which should be good for a sync rate of 15-16Mb/s all things going well.

Cyril

This really sounds like it's a complex fault doesn't it Cyril7?

Does anyone know if Chorus actually has a process for dealing with escalations like this and dealing with complex faults?

I mean this really needs someone with the cable map to actually have a look at the lay out and figure out where the cable actually runs and what the cable length should actually be.

Then does the tech need to use a TDR to just measure the cable length across a few pairs to see how they compare and prove out that the pair doesn't have a fault condition on it?

Is it likely that there will be another clean pair in the cable? I have no idea what will be running up the street.

Based on what is being said, it seems like the Chorus tech's have only been doing a half job in a hurry rather than a concentrated effort to close the fault down?

Again, I'm not a network field tech, so I'm only postulating and welcome comment from others.

ChillingSilence, I do think that doing the DMT test would be an interesting test as well, I don't quite follow what Cyril is on about there (didn't read his link yet) but it does look interesting, so please post some results so others who are reading can also learn a bit more. As to what you should do next with regards to ringing Chorus, SlingShot or Telecom... don't know yet. Let's just keep talking this out a bit more and see what others have to say. I would suspect that this might need to get escalated though to Chorus to get sorted out properly, but who you talk to and on what number I have no idea (feel free to chime in if anyone has a clue/suggestion).
We've just opened the dawn of a new era this week with Chorus becoming a new company in its own right, so it might be a bit before details or processes leach down to us minions :)

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ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554581 6-Dec-2011 17:15

Yeah pretty much, the techs just want to show up, tick it off as NFF and piss off home. They've freely admitted that to me, they don't get paid if they can't fix the fault, so they prefer to log it as NFF and then the customer gets billed (Slingshot, I'm not going to be billed for their incompetence).

What really pisses me off though is TDR basically washed their hands of it and said "Sorry, dunno what to do, you're on your own". Slingshot came back and said "Righto, take it like it is, or bugger off to another ISP".
I shot back and said "The issue is semi-random, occuring between 5PM and 10:30PM on a weeknight (Weekends seem different). I want you to have a tech come out and sit here and watch it for the full 5 hours and he'll see at SOME point throughout the night, it'll start dropping. When it does, it might only be for 20 minutes, it could be for up to an hour, but there's no guarantee when it'll start happening. They have to be there for the WHOLE evening.".

So they agreed to send out their own tech, and Chorus too. Unfortunately they pissed around for two weeks and I was going on my first trip overseas to Aus for 12 days, but my brother-in-law was house-sitting and briefly filled in, though he's not super-technical.
So, Chorus and Slingshot show up one night to do some tests, they yank the wires outta the demarc and hook up their own router. Sit there for 60 minutes, then go home (I've got smokeping testing for something like 90 seconds out of every 2 minutes, so I knew almost as soon as it went down and back up again).

Slingshot decided the results were inconclusive and wanted to come back a week later (My final few days of being away) so they did, same thing, showed up at 5:30 / 6ish (I can't remember, it's not really relevant), plug in for 60 minutes, then bugger off home and decide "Nope, we couldn't see any fault, line stats are fine, we're going to close / cancel the case".
So when Slingshot wrote to me this morning telling me their conclusion (Which has taken almost 3 weeks to deliver since then), I got pretty angry, and let them know.

I've also requested on a number of occasions they trace the cables and see exactly where its running, and to let me know, to give both Slingshot, Chorus, and myself a better indication of the speeds I should be expecting (A small side-issue really).

Anyways, just plugged in the DV120, definitely getting the packet loss, though it was previously around 50%, it's significantly lower (Though still unacceptable) so I'll try the firmware upgrade and post back shortly.
Tried using DMT on the AM300 but the AM300 doesn't support Telnet. Gotta find which DMT version to use for the DV120 now...

Ping stats while on the AM300

|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| WinMTR statistics |
| Host - % | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
| TomatoRouter - 0 | 677 | 677 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 0 |
| my.router - 0 | 677 | 677 | 0 | 1 | 21 | 2 |
| No response from host - 100 | 677 | 0 | 5000 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| p85.pool-82.callplus.net.nz - 35 | 673 | 442 | 23 | 26 | 181 | 23 |
| vlan7-cpcak3-s1.tranzpeer.net - 9 | 672 | 614 | 23 | 25 | 224 | 23 |
| orcon2.ape.net.nz - 9 | 671 | 612 | 23 | 26 | 62 | 25 |
| 121.98.9.137 - 12 | 670 | 592 | 24 | 30 | 236 | 81 |
| hd-bdr1.hostingdirect.co.nz - 15 | 668 | 568 | 25 | 27 | 49 | 30 |
| 10ge-v4070.pm-ce1.hd.net.nz - 10 | 668 | 607 | 25 | 26 | 42 | 26 |
| 49.50.243.203 - 9 | 668 | 614 | 25 | 26 | 45 | 26 |
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|

Here's what the DV120 shows if I telnet in and run "adsl status":

> adsl status
--------------------------- ATU-R Info (hw: annex A, f/w: annex A) -----------
DSL Modulation : ADSL2+(G.992.5)
State : SHOWTIME
DS Actual Rate : 12024835 bps US Actual Rate : 1209600 bps
DS Attainable Rate : 11708000 bps US Attainable Rate : 302 bps
DS Path Mode : Fast US Path Mode : Fast
DS Interleave Depth : 416 US Interleave Depth : 1
NE Current Attenuation : 14 dB Cur SNR Margin : 15 dB
DS actual PSD : 18. 8 dB US actual PSD : 12. 5 dB
ADSL Firmware Version : 321311_A
-------------------------------- ATU-C Info ---------------------------------
Far Current Attenuation : 2 dB Far SNR Margin : 15 dB
CO ITU Version[0] : 0000494b CO ITU Version[1] : 00004e53
DSLAM CHIPSET VENDOR :

EDIT: Why doesn't that BB code work? Odd...

ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554583 6-Dec-2011 17:20

Nope turns out I'm already running 3.2.4.4 firmware...

Model Name : Vigor120
Firmware Version : 3.2.4.4
Build Date/Time : Aug 16 2010 11:13:23
ADSL Firmware Version : 321311_A Hardware: Annex A

I've already flashed every single firmware on that page and power cycled and tested with. None resolve the issue unfortunately.

EDIT: It's also worth noting I've tried an old DV120 from around early 2009 (I think) and then also another that was purchased at the start of August (I think, roughly)

DonGould

3892 posts

Uber Geek

#554587 6-Dec-2011 17:26

Oh that's the other issue... Is it a joint with water ingress? or a dry joint somewhere?

The next thing I want to know is if the snr/att are static or if they change over time?

Also, isn't this stuff just like the days of old modems? If you set the speed profile to high it retrains and drops out while it's doing that? So you need a profile that just fixes the connection lower?

This isn't stuff the field tech is going to be able to extract, someone in Chorus NOC needs to look at the data coming off the DSLAM to sort that out...

Anyone know if Chorus actually capture that data at all? I know most gear produces stuff like this, but not every carrier implements any sort of system to deal with it.

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dhoulbrooke

29 posts

Geek

#554592 6-Dec-2011 17:30

OrbMT will give you a pretty graph of the output from the "adsl showbins" command on the DrayTek.

Like this:

ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554594 6-Dec-2011 17:31

Yes they're relatively static, they fluctuate by up to 1, but no it stays the same.
They've fixed the joints, there was issues in the pillar at the end of the driveway, and also an issue with the joint at the cabinet. Still hasn't resolved it.

Here's an except from the email from Slingshot:
- Investigated a claimed packet loss issue with Telecom Wholesale ? result was No Fault Found as a large amount of data was going over the port.
- Changed Line Profile from AM to LM at an attempt to improve line rates
- Changed Line Profile from LM to RM at an attempt to improve line stability
- Ran multiple LQD and SCE analyser tools across your line to confirm traffic and line quality.

Basically on the default profile, I was syncing around 9mbps ...

So it turns out that there's no DMT Tools for the Draytek either that I can find, so I'm thinking of digging up a TG585v8 I have lying around somewhere and seeing if I can get that to work, apparently v7 plays nice with it according to here:
http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/DMTv7.htm

Chorus have also "monitored" the line several times, probably about 8-9x to be honest, and haven't been able tell me the results of that monitoring or what they see during the disconnection periods.

I'll see if I can find some of the details they sent me about my disconnections too...

ChillingSilence

301 posts

Ultimate Geek

#554595 6-Dec-2011 17:34

Awesome, thanks so much!

I get this:

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