UPS: APC vs Dynamix

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#2354982 17-Nov-2019 09:38

Tinkerisk:

boland:

How can I find out about that?

Why didn't their support tell me that... :(

Maybe because you don't tell them what model you have like you don't tell here?

I've got an Eaton 3s 550. Connected to my QNAP NAS. Under the hood it uses NUT, which has a bunch of settings apparently. Not sure what setting for input voltage to use, any idea?

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#2355201 17-Nov-2019 15:59

230V is officially NZ standard; for historical reasons most areas are closer to 240V but it's more likely that you'll have undervoltage than overvoltage. I'd leave it on 230.

Does it say anything about what caused the last trip?

What's your shutdown delay set to?

Tinkerisk

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#2355222 17-Nov-2019 17:06

boland:

I've got an Eaton 3s 550. Connected to my QNAP NAS. Under the hood it uses NUT, which has a bunch of settings apparently. Not sure what setting for input voltage to use, any idea?

You could change the catching voltage range from 184-264V to 161-284V for a while just too see, if the UPS can handle this better than before (no trigger due to common voltage changes at your location). If better, leave it there. Check if 161V is a sufficient supply voltage for your QNAP. NUT is a service to monitor and inform clients about UPS operation but normally can't handle the electrical input conditions of your UPS.

Another possible problem is due to the low performance of an underrated UPS. Imagine you have the UPS triggered. It switches to battery power when you have a voltage drop (or overvoltage). Lets say, the 3S could handle 165W (50%) for about 9 minutes, it quickly runs near to empty (within this time). Now you get a second drop and your equipment faces an empty battery which normally needs a charging cycle of several hours. It will not have the capacity to supply a second safe shutdown of your server which will loose it's supply instantly.

You may need to configure NUT to initiate a shut down of the QNAP after a minute (not to supply as long as possible or a too long period). Due to the low power capacity rating it's not a real UPS to last for a longer period of a power drop in total, it's just an emergency supply for an immediate, safe shut down (and only for that!).

So you either need to increase the capacity of your UPS or you decrease the time (as much as possible) by configuration (or NUT) it is capable to supply your equipment.

Keep in mind, that many discharge cycles reduce the lifetime of your battery noticeably. The same applies when the UPS is placed in a rack and temperature is more than 25°C (i.e. having 35°C in a rack reduces the battery life by 50%).

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#2355238 17-Nov-2019 17:29

The APC I briefly owned made a high pitched noise I couldn't tolerate in my office. The cheap second hand Dynamix I picked up doesn't - though I don't use it any more.

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#2355248 17-Nov-2019 18:13

What is the recommended UPS rating for an iMac Pro, 2 external drives, a 4 disk NAS and the wifi router?

Tinkerisk

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#2355251 17-Nov-2019 18:32

Geektastic:

What is the recommended UPS rating for an iMac Pro, 2 external drives, a 4 disk NAS and the wifi router?

Depends. What is your intention? Assuming your most powerful brand new iMac pro has ~275W (hell!), your NAS ~100W, your router ~10W = ~400W peak.

1) Supply for (2-3) safe immediate shutdown(s)? - approx. 750-800VA/500W (mostly single battery)

2) Supply for an average power drop duration (i.e. here it is 12min/yr) - approx. 1600VA/1000W (mostly two batteries)

3) Supply for a certain independent operation time (i.e. you need to be operable for 2h in any case). - must be calculated in detail (battery array)

Note: the numbers include some margin for battery degradation during operational battery life (~2-3yrs). Be aware that the UPS control s/w must be able to support MacOS or you need to check for a MacOS NUT client and to set up a NUT server (your NAS or a RaspberryPi).

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#2355253 17-Nov-2019 19:08

timmmay:

The APC I briefly owned made a high pitched noise I couldn't tolerate in my office.

That sounds like a fault. I've sold dozens of these and not had a single noise complaint.

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boland

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#2355267 17-Nov-2019 19:39

SomeoneSomewhere:

230V is officially NZ standard; for historical reasons most areas are closer to 240V but it's more likely that you'll have undervoltage than overvoltage. I'd leave it on 230.

Does it say anything about what caused the last trip?

What's your shutdown delay set to?

At that time it was connected to my QNAP, nothing in those logs. I've connected it now to my Linux server which gives more options.

boland

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#2355269 17-Nov-2019 19:45

Tinkerisk:

boland:

I've got an Eaton 3s 550. Connected to my QNAP NAS. Under the hood it uses NUT, which has a bunch of settings apparently. Not sure what setting for input voltage to use, any idea?

You could change the catching voltage range from 184-264V to 161-284V for a while just too see, if the UPS can handle this better than before (no trigger due to common voltage changes at your location). If better, leave it there. Check if 161V is a sufficient supply voltage for your QNAP. NUT is a service to monitor and inform clients about UPS operation but normally can't handle the electrical input conditions of your UPS.

Another possible problem is due to the low performance of an underrated UPS. Imagine you have the UPS triggered. It switches to battery power when you have a voltage drop (or overvoltage). Lets say, the 3S could handle 165W (50%) for about 9 minutes, it quickly runs near to empty (within this time). Now you get a second drop and your equipment faces an empty battery which normally needs a charging cycle of several hours. It will not have the capacity to supply a second safe shutdown of your server which will loose it's supply instantly.

You may need to configure NUT to initiate a shut down of the QNAP after a minute (not to supply as long as possible or a too long period). Due to the low power capacity rating it's not a real UPS to last for a longer period of a power drop in total, it's just an emergency supply for an immediate, safe shut down (and only for that!).

So you either need to increase the capacity of your UPS or you decrease the time (as much as possible) by configuration (or NUT) it is capable to supply your equipment.

Keep in mind, that many discharge cycles reduce the lifetime of your battery noticeably. The same applies when the UPS is placed in a rack and temperature is more than 25°C (i.e. having 35°C in a rack reduces the battery life by 50%).

Thanks. I've connected the UPS via USB to my Windows laptop, then configured it to 168-295. I couldn't find a way to do it in NUT on Linux, that's a bit confusing as I'm using a generic driver (usbhid-ups).

Anyway, it shows it correctly as far as I can tell:

upsc qnapups@127.0.0.1
...
input.transfer.high: 295
input.transfer.low: 168
...

Yoban

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#2355539 18-Nov-2019 10:04

noroad:

I've used both extensively and the APC is in a different League from the Dynamix. Every Dynamix UPS Ive bought has failed far too soon for my liking. If its for home use and you have some physical flexibility I would recommend one of these https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32856831739.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4d5noGo2 and a car battery/ups battery of some sort. I've bought several of these and the bigger versions and they are a far superior option to a cheap UPS. You get hours of run time instead of minutes and have worked out to be far more reliable in my experience.

Now this does sound interesting...struggling to picture a car battery in the bottom of a rack or under the office desk, @noroad are you able to elaborate on how setting this up would look/be like? I noticed you mention of "physical flexibility" - would cable length from UPS to device be limiting?

noroad

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#2355551 18-Nov-2019 10:21

Now this does sound interesting...struggling to picture a car battery in the bottom of a rack or under the office desk, @noroad are you able to elaborate on how setting this up would look/be like? I noticed you mention of "physical flexibility" - would cable length from UPS to device be limiting?

By "physical flexibility" I mean its not quite as tidy as a single enclosed UPS. The inverter/charger is very simple however, AC in one side (standard IEC) and a single (more on the bigger units) AC outlet on it. The unit comes with 50cm long 16mm diameter 12v (24-48v for larger units) DC cables with (car) Jumper lead like crocadile clips to connect to a battery(s). Personally I changed the crocodile clips for standard car battery clamps. Personally I have a standard 480CCA sealed car battery on my unit at home and that gives me 4hours. in my lab rack at the office Ive got the larger 24v pure sine wave unit with proper UPS batteries and it gives me about 2hours for my lab routers. I would never go back to the entry level UPS's after finding these inverters, its just day and night performance wise and they are so damn cheap its a no brainier. You can also disconnect and change the battery without dropping the load. I searched for a long time for something that would be better than the cheap UPS before finally finding these units.

12v modified sine wave - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32856831739.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4d5noGo2

12v pure sine wave - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1000001384610.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000013.17.741b41168H2zJa&gps-id=pc

24v pure sine wave - https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32767541378.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000013.17.242a64e3mn4v7F&gps-id=pc

I use the modified sine wave at home, (have not seen any issues with anything not liking it) and the pure sine wave units at work

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#2355592 18-Nov-2019 11:16

Thanks very much for this - extremely interested, especially with the up times achieved.

noroad:

...Personally I have a standard 480CCA sealed car battery on my unit at home and that gives me 4hours. in my lab rack at the office Ive got the larger 24v pure sine wave unit with proper UPS batteries and it gives me about 2hours for my lab routers. I would never go back to the entry level UPS's after finding these inverters, its just day and night performance wise and they are so damn cheap its a no brainier.

So for the home setup...do yo have this sitting in a rack or just under the desk concept? I could see this working in a rack at the bottom with battery on the base and mount the inverter to a blank panel attached to rack pillars. (guessing this is what has been done at work.)

Using deep cycle battery OK (https://www.mrpositive.co.nz/deep-cycle-lead-acid-batteries/)?

noroad

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#2355605 18-Nov-2019 11:31

Yoban:

So for the home setup...do yo have this sitting in a rack or just under the desk concept? I could see this working in a rack at the bottom with battery on the base and mount the inverter to a blank panel attached to rack pillars. (guessing this is what has been done at work.)

Using deep cycle battery OK (https://www.mrpositive.co.nz/deep-cycle-lead-acid-batteries/)?

I would post a nice picture of my 4xNUC's switches/firewalls etc but its a bit of a mess of cables right now. I've got the inverter screwed to the side of the cabinet and the battery in a bracket below. The Inverter makes no real noise except when its recharging the battery after a mains interruption.

At work I'm using these currently, but the bigger ones are in my plan at some point -

https://www.mrpositive.co.nz/ritar-12v-45ahr-agm-deep-cycle-lead-acid-battery/

Yoban

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#2355618 18-Nov-2019 12:05

noroad:

I would post a nice picture of my 4xNUC's switches/firewalls etc but its a bit of a mess of cables right now. I've got the inverter screwed to the side of the cabinet and the battery in a bracket below. The Inverter makes no real noise except when its recharging the battery after a mains interruption.

At work I'm using these currently, but the bigger ones are in my plan at some point -

https://www.mrpositive.co.nz/ritar-12v-45ahr-agm-deep-cycle-lead-acid-battery/

Ah brilliant re battery options. Photo would be nice...I am sure my cables are just as bad :-) and as a result Looking to move in to a rack for some "ordered cabling chaos".

A couple more queries...

1) Monitoring of when on battery so that servers/NAS can shutdown - this possible? does not seem like it from my reading.

2) Can the alarms be disabled or controlled? My kit is central and even with a short overnight brownout, having this go off will impact WAF :-) A feature of some "off the shelf" UPS that I may need to trade off against price and up time benefits of your solution.

noroad

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#2355670 18-Nov-2019 12:29

Yoban:

1) Monitoring of when on battery so that servers/NAS can shutdown - this possible? does not seem like it from my reading.

2) Can the alarms be disabled or controlled? My kit is central and even with a short overnight brownout, having this go off will impact WAF :-) A feature of some "off the shelf" UPS that I may need to trade off against price and up time benefits of your solution.

No Monitoring built into these units from what I have seen. Mind you with an appropriate battery you could give yourself 24 or more hours without too much trouble. Personally I've always found the auto shutdown features on basic UPS's to cause more trouble than they are worth.

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