network extention

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#1241321 18-Feb-2015 09:43

tkgit: you can use wireless solution if you think difficult for new layering STP cable underground,
http://www.computerstore.co.nz/computer-cables-connections-nz/network-security-telephone-cable-rolls
http://www.cablesdirect.co.nz/catalog/entry?entry=314

in other topic i mention wireless solution for PtP link

We can use the existing underground telephone cable(friends own it) and they are more than happy to have the business over VOIP, which I'll be suggesting 2Talk.

tkgit

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#1241360 18-Feb-2015 10:22

have you implemented that?
i think it's more complicated because use ADC-DAC

http://ask.slashdot.org/story/03/01/30/1739238/using-dsl-modems-for-point-to-point-connections
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r17110864-Point-to-Point-DSL-no-wireless-and-no-central-office

sbiddle

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Biddle Corp

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#1241366 18-Feb-2015 10:25

tkgit: you can use wireless solution if you think difficult for new layering STP cable underground,
http://www.computerstore.co.nz/computer-cables-connections-nz/network-security-telephone-cable-rolls
http://www.cablesdirect.co.nz/catalog/entry?entry=314

in other topic i mention wireless solution for PtP link

I disagree with wireless being the 2nd best option if cables can't be laid. Lots of people instantly think wireless, but it's a 3rd place option behind VDSL2 extenders which would work perfectly in this case and deliver 100Mbps symmetrical.

Wireless suffers from being half duplex which causes performance issues if you have applications such as those with intensive SQL lookups across the same network.

jonb

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#1241458 18-Feb-2015 11:16

I don't have practical experience in these things, but am interested in why VDSL extenders are being proposed now as a solution by knowledgable people. There a lot of these threads, and the generally consensus was first Ethernet cable if possible, then power over Ethernet, then point to point wifi. Fibre optic cable as an extender seen as too expensive or difficult without a need for that level of bandwidth. Seems only recently that VDSL extenders are being suggested.

Jase2985

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#1241462 18-Feb-2015 11:22

because in this case there already is a cable between the 2 building, it just happens to be a phone line, cant run Ethernet over the phone line, nor Ethernet over power. and as has been mentioned about wifi

coffeebaron

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#1241474 18-Feb-2015 11:51

I can supply the VDSL Ethernet extenders. I've installed a few of these, and definitely my first choice when there is a suitable cable in between. Flick me a message if you would like some pricing.
Thanks
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tkgit

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#1241520 18-Feb-2015 12:18

sbiddle:
tkgit: you can use wireless solution if you think difficult for new layering STP cable underground,
http://www.computerstore.co.nz/computer-cables-connections-nz/network-security-telephone-cable-rolls
http://www.cablesdirect.co.nz/catalog/entry?entry=314

in other topic i mention wireless solution for PtP link

I disagree with wireless being the 2nd best option if cables can't be laid. Lots of people instantly think wireless, but it's a 3rd place option behind VDSL2 extenders which would work perfectly in this case and deliver 100Mbps symmetrical.

Wireless suffers from being half duplex which causes performance issues if you have applications such as those with intensive SQL lookups across the same network.

http://www.slideshare.net/wichets/solution-wireless-link-10-20-km-speed-200-mbps-mikrotik-rb-sxt-5ndr2-lite-5-rb-sxt-5ndr2-lite-5-complete-set

if any more cheap solution, you can do that

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sbiddle

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#1241533 18-Feb-2015 12:33

tkgit:
sbiddle:
tkgit: you can use wireless solution if you think difficult for new layering STP cable underground,
http://www.computerstore.co.nz/computer-cables-connections-nz/network-security-telephone-cable-rolls
http://www.cablesdirect.co.nz/catalog/entry?entry=314

in other topic i mention wireless solution for PtP link

I disagree with wireless being the 2nd best option if cables can't be laid. Lots of people instantly think wireless, but it's a 3rd place option behind VDSL2 extenders which would work perfectly in this case and deliver 100Mbps symmetrical.

Wireless suffers from being half duplex which causes performance issues if you have applications such as those with intensive SQL lookups across the same network.

http://www.slideshare.net/wichets/solution-wireless-link-10-20-km-speed-200-mbps-mikrotik-rb-sxt-5ndr2-lite-5-rb-sxt-5ndr2-lite-5-complete-set

if any more cheap solution, you can do that

Wireless is a great solution, but as I've explained a few times should not be used in place of a VDSL2 extender. It's an inferior solution as wireless is half duplex.

Ethernet is the best option, but without even looking at the site running 50m of cable in an existing won't necessarily be an easy job.

Noig

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#1241536 18-Feb-2015 12:37

sbiddle
The phone cable from the house to the building in question is laid underground and is existing and belongs to the property owner.

chevrolux

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#1241544 18-Feb-2015 12:43

Here are my thoughts to all of these 'get internet to my garage' questions.

Option 1: Run a cable. If you are keen to do a bit of work this will always be the best option.
Is there an existing feed out to the building?
No: Dig a trench or build a conduit pathway along a fence/structure and lay some standard Cat 6 underground cable, you can use S-UTP or S-STP if you are paranoid and have money to burn.
Yes: Is it run in a conduit?
No: Dig a trench or build a conduit pathway along a fence/structure and lay some standard Cat 6 underground cable
Yes: Can you access both ends of the conduit?
No: Dig a trench or build a conduit pathway along a fence/structure and lay some standard Cat 6 underground cable
Yes: Is the existing cable easily movable from both ends?
No: Dig a trench or build a conduit pathway along a fence/structure and lay some standard Cat 6 underground cable
Yes: Strip back the cable and expose copper on all pairs. Strip back new Cat 6 cable to pull. Twist bare copper ends together. Tape twisted joint to make it "smooth". Spray some silicone spray on it (or use dish washing detergent, durex lube, anything slippery etc). Pull through new cable. Copper-Copper won't slip apart like a taped joint does but snapping is still an issue so just go easy. That is why you tape the joint because in case it gets stuck on the edge of the strip cable hopefully the tape lets it sort of slide past. I've pulled cables for hundreds of meter using this method and never had an issue.

Option 2: VDSL Extenders. If there is an existing phone feed these are an excellent choice but require a bit more technical know how.
VDSL extenders require a "clean" pair from end to end to deliver the best performance. This means you will need to open up phone jackpoints and find the cable that currently connects to the two buildings. Once you find this cable I think best practice is to terminate each end with RJ45 plugs which will then let you simply plug in the VDSL extenders at each end. Generaly the VDSL units have RJ11 outlets so plugging in to an RJ45 is nice and easy with a standard line cord. Most extenders also have a POTS input/output on them too so you can still send the phone line across this new link. Again, if the carrier pair is terminated on RJ45 at each end it makes it nice and easy to plug a pots line to them.
As Steve mentioned, look for ones that support 30a profile as that will deliver 100Mbps symmetrical and give you a link just as good as a Ethernet cable. I personally have always used Allied Telesis units but the Netsys ones are bound to be just as good.
The biggest downside to these are the price. You will be looking at around $300 per end. For this reason alone I almost made this option 3.

Option 3: Fixed Wireless Bridge. If there is no existing pathway, you don't want to get dirty, and there is clear line of sight this is a great option.
I am a fairly lazy person and feel I have well in truly done my time pulling cables in trenches. I will always look for line of sight for a wireless bridge in these scenarios.
Note I said "fixed" wireless. I am just trying to differentiate between a proper point-to-point wireless bridge as opposed to one hacked together with WDS routers. We are talking two, stand-alone, radio units to form a high performance, layer 2, wireless link.
To do this there are a few options for hardware:
-Ubiquiti NanoStation loco M5 or NanoBeam.
The NanoStation Loco M5 is designed for short links up to 1km. The NanoBeam has replaced the old NanoStation for links up to 10-20km. I would suggest the Loco M5 is always the kit people will use in their back yard.
- Mikrotik SXT
This is just Mikrotik's answer to the similar UBNT products. It puts the routerboard and antenna in a nice little case with a mounting bracket etc.
I tend to think if you have to ask how to do this then Mikrotik would not be the answer, RouterOS is a steep learning curve. The benefits of MT is you get a lot more flexibility in all aspects of the set up (wireless settings, routing, interfaces etc). The UBNT gear is a much simpler set up. I think for most people UBNT is the best choice as it will do what most people want which is just simply provide a bridge.
With either of these those the important thing is to obviously secure the wireless interface, pick a relatively free channel (both products have a analyser to show you this), and pull down the transmit power as the link will be super short. In the end you want to aim to have a nice stable link sitting some where around 60-50dBm and a no more than 5dB imbalance between chains (if they are dual chained devices of which the Loco M5 and SXT are).

I don't really think "ethernet over power" is the right answer as they can be so hit and miss depending on the different wiring situations. Same as using a mega-high gain wireles router in the house. Just so hit-and-miss.

Those are my thoughts anyway...

mckenndk

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#1241642 18-Feb-2015 13:50

I would agree the VDSL would be the best/easiest option here, have used it in a previous place of work until we replaced the lines with fibre to connect buildings.
We mainly went to fibre where we were as the location was prone to lightning strikes during storms doubt that would be the case here though.

If they don't need to have Gigabit unless they are running servers in the house and the rest of the business in the shed otherwise a run of ubiquity tough cable or something similar would be the best option.
You could also have their backups go into the house so they are in a separate building in case of fire/theft etc as well.

There there is wireless as a last resort which I would suggest a ubiquiti solution.

With the ethernet over power option there is a good chance the shed and house will be in different circuits considering how far apart they are.

tkgit

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#1241824 18-Feb-2015 17:19

if you need more cheap,more easy setup, u can use
http://www.tp-link.com/en/products/details/?categoryid=242&model=TL-WA7510N

in my origin country,usually use by newbie

Noig

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#1242550 19-Feb-2015 20:10

The "project" is on hold atm because the owner needs to check the quality of the line to the house(from the roadside) and the router.
I will post an update when things are moving.
Thanks to all of you!

webwat

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#1243742 21-Feb-2015 16:04

jonb: I don't have practical experience in these things, but am interested in why VDSL extenders are being proposed now as a solution by knowledgable people. There a lot of these threads, and the generally consensus was first Ethernet cable if possible, then power over Ethernet, then point to point wifi. Fibre optic cable as an extender seen as too expensive or difficult without a need for that level of bandwidth. Seems only recently that VDSL extenders are being suggested.

How could power over ethernet be seen as a 2nd choice if ehternet isn't possible? it runs OVER ethernet so you need ethernet first! I think you mean ethernet over powerline... which isn't designed to work over a 50m 3-phase power cable bewtween distribution boards.

1st choice: use the existing cable if its a waterproof gel-filled outdoor cable of at least Cat5e spec and installed in a reliable manner (2 pairs are enough for 100M speed), will just need to put a Cat5e RJ45 outlet at each end of the link and if necessary move/extend the outlets to suitable places to locate the ethernet equipment.

2nd choice: trench to the office, lay a pipe, take care to mount the junction boxes in a way that water cannot run into the wall if the Jbox gets damaged, and run a new outdoor type (gel-filled) Cat5e or Cat6 cable.

3rd choice: save a bit of money by putting up some poles and stretching some fencing wire bewteen the buildings to hang the above gel-filled cable.

4th choice: put the VDSL modems in as proposed by sbiddle. essentially the same as option 1 but doesn't require Cat5e cable, only needs a single pair of wires.

5th choice: mount a PTP wifi system on each building, and acknowledge that this will be subject to single duplex and interferance so an 5Ghz system would be preferable with a clear line of sight.

Time to find a new industry!

Jase2985

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#1243787 21-Feb-2015 17:19

i think they mean Ethernet over power :)

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