Smart Replacement for Central Heating Thermostat

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#3245580 7-Jun-2024 10:10

sir1963:

Handle9:

You still have to setup, configure and keep updated HomeKit devices. My thermostats are HomeKit enabled but they still require all of that.

It sounds like home automation isn’t for you at all.

ATM I agree HA may not be for me.... but it should be.

I want something that just works, has one front end, is easy to configure for non geeks.
Everyone is looking for lock-in, ad revenue, phone home, tracking, proprietary tech etc in the INMO of being bought out for insane sums by one of the big players.
Yes there is open stuff, but too much of that is by geeks for geeks. Too much tech is still at the "program the VCR" level of consumer usability.

I have a lot of tech at home that I regularly do SW updates on, and some I don't bother with (eg "smart" TVs, I have Apple TVs).

It should be considered part of the house, ie in 20 years time you can still get new parts for it from multiple suppliers. Why spend a huge sum of money on something you will need to replace every 10 years (or less). The motion detectors for my house are about 20 years old, and I have had to replace some of them with something that just works in their place, easy!

tech churn, planned obsolesce etc is NOT there for the consumers benefit, its for the benefit of those who get to sell you new stuff time and time again, adding to the waste stream.

The advantage of HA (and others like it eg openhab), it they dont tie you to one ecosystem. And while they will have a higher time cost, once it's up you are more insulated.

And then you can choose what (or all) to expose to homekit for a simpler WAF interface. While also having the option of a interface if needed.

I mean being able to create a Stereo on homekit (which is not a device type), exposed as a tv, which when you tell it to power on, is actually firing a IR code at my very dumb receiver, and then tell it to switch to the CD input - where the chromecast lives. Is not just possible with apple products natively. And I'd be having to buy an Airplay compatible device.

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sir1963

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#3245596 7-Jun-2024 11:39

davidcole:

The advantage of HA (and others like it eg openhab), it they dont tie you to one ecosystem. And while they will have a higher time cost, once it's up you are more insulated.

And then you can choose what (or all) to expose to homekit for a simpler WAF interface. While also having the option of a interface if needed.

I mean being able to create a Stereo on homekit (which is not a device type), exposed as a tv, which when you tell it to power on, is actually firing a IR code at my very dumb receiver, and then tell it to switch to the CD input - where the chromecast lives. Is not just possible with apple products natively. And I'd be having to buy an Airplay compatible device.

https://www.apple.com/nz/home-app/accessories/

Time cost is the issue here , I work with high tech (scientific instrumentation for 40 years) all the time and I am forever having to keep up/learn/relearn user interfaces etc etc etc and it has grown every old on me.

I am NOT interested in this for home anymore, I am far more interested in spending my free time reading, learning on my lathe, sorting out my collection of antique computers and eventually making stationary steam engines to give to the grandkids.

Tech to me is now "is it making life simpler" and the answer is no, everyone expands/bloats their stuff to try and do everything and simply ends up doing everything badly. Or they now want "subscriptions" "Phone home" etc etc to work.

Handle9

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#3245762 7-Jun-2024 15:55

sir1963:
Handle9:

You still have to setup, configure and keep updated HomeKit devices. My thermostats are HomeKit enabled but they still require all of that.

It sounds like home automation isn’t for you at all.

ATM I agree HA may not be for me.... but it should be.

I want something that just works, has one front end, is easy to configure for non geeks.
Everyone is looking for lock-in, ad revenue, phone home, tracking, proprietary tech etc in the INMO of being bought out for insane sums by one of the big players.
Yes there is open stuff, but too much of that is by geeks for geeks. Too much tech is still at the "program the VCR" level of consumer usability.

I have a lot of tech at home that I regularly do SW updates on, and some I don't bother with (eg "smart" TVs, I have Apple TVs).

It should be considered part of the house, ie in 20 years time you can still get new parts for it from multiple suppliers. Why spend a huge sum of money on something you will need to replace every 10 years (or less). The motion detectors for my house are about 20 years old, and I have had to replace some of them with something that just works in their place, easy!

tech churn, planned obsolesce etc is NOT there for the consumers benefit, its for the benefit of those who get to sell you new stuff time and time again, adding to the waste stream.

If you want easy you accept that there will be an element of a closed ecosystem. That’s the nature of closed ecosystems. They are controlled so they can be simplified and made easier as well as often offering more functionality.

If you want open, interoperable ecosystems then there is a degree of complexity and/or lack of functionality compared to closed ecosystems.

Supporting products for 20 years is really expensive and the market won’t pay for it in a domestic setting. Even in a commercial setting no one wants to pay for it. We have had customer lose their buy over not being able to get spare parts for gear that went obsolete 20 years ago. A business can’t have dead stock sitting on the shelf for that period of time, it’s unrealistic. I’ve worked in building automation for a long time and it’s always been like this and likely always will be.

sir1963

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#3245771 7-Jun-2024 16:37

Handle9:

If you want easy you accept that there will be an element of a closed ecosystem. That’s the nature of closed ecosystems. They are controlled so they can be simplified and made easier as well as often offering more functionality.

If you want open, interoperable ecosystems then there is a degree of complexity and/or lack of functionality compared to closed ecosystems.

Supporting products for 20 years is really expensive and the market won’t pay for it in a domestic setting. Even in a commercial setting no one wants to pay for it. We have had customer lose their buy over not being able to get spare parts for gear that went obsolete 20 years ago. A business can’t have dead stock sitting on the shelf for that period of time, it’s unrealistic. I’ve worked in building automation for a long time and it’s always been like this and likely always will be.

Check with the Auto industry, they seem to manage having spares for long periods, likewise the aviation industry.

And the electrical industry has had "same form factor, same function" for many decades.

Its not that its too expensive to do, its just its more profitable to sell new incompatible stuff and force major upgrades.

And I regularly fix scientific equipment that's more than 30 years old , common parts, service manuals, downloadable firmware, heck I have made new PCBs to replace functionality for older stuff, I have bought in an 8085 microprocessor from home out of my collection to keep stuff going that was built in the 1970's. We buy in Meanwell power supplies to replace dead proprietary ones for 1/10th the price.

Too much tech has embraced the throw away mentality and its very much "planned obsolescence" mantra.

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#3245785 7-Jun-2024 16:54

The complexity of a mechanical light switch is very different to the complexity of a piece of automation. Even so you can’t get the same design after 20 years, you can get one that is functionally equivalent but not the same. Automation is largely the same. Zigbee has been around for 20 years, Bacnet and EIB/KNX for much longer. You can get replacements for these products but it’s not usually the same product.

I work for one of the largest global automation manufacturers (both industrial and buildings) and support of legacy gear is incredibly expensive. Maintaining stock, tools and people costs us a fortune. When those costs get passed on the bleating is extreme but it is what it is.

Supporting individual legacy products isn’t particularly difficult but supporting legacy systems is. The degree of complexity and cost is very different between a product and a system. Inevitably something in the supply chain is no longer manufactured and it’s often a system critical component. That ends up breaking the entire system.

sir1963

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#3248139 12-Jun-2024 17:53

So I now have a Sensibo Air so that my Heatpump is actually controlled usefully using Homekit.
I have an Eve outdoor camera/light (mains powered) which will get installed in the weekend, need daylight to see what I am doing.
I have a Tapo power outlet (Matter), no 3rd party App required just used Apples "Home" App , no sign up for someone else's spam/registration...AWESOME, it's how it should be.

I have on order a Hubitat C8 hub for Zigbee stuff and when that arrives I will see if the Arlo temperature sensor works with it. I will also be getting a PDL 10A Zigbee Switch and see about setting up a scene where I can control the underfloor heating in the ensuite.

I am avoiding mains powered stuff for the Zigbee on Trademe as there is no COC for any of that stuff...and I am not putting chinesium into my walls.

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Handle9

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#3248156 12-Jun-2024 19:20

Hubitat seems like a bit of an odd choice given you want easy.

Unless you are planning on using Zwave it's not a platform I'd consider.

sir1963

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#3248167 12-Jun-2024 19:50

Handle9:

Hubitat seems like a bit of an odd choice given you want easy.

Unless you are planning on using Zwave it's not a platform I'd consider.

Its certified for Homekit and I am going to use some PDL/Clipsal/Schneider switches for my underfloor heating (they will be inside the wall in a flush box) which it also supports (AFAICT)
The iPad looks like it will allow me to set up the iPad in kiosk mode with the Hubitat App and allow the wife and kids simple control over the various things I want to do, and also allow the house sitter to do the same while we are on holiday. I can STILL use Homekit from anywhere in the world to check/control stuff.
LOTS of reading/youTube vids and "reality" vs being lazy.

For mains powered stuff I want things to have an actual Cert of Compliance, costs more but peace of mind...(I am a sparkie so trade prices are still high but not retail price gross pricing)

Some other Zigbee hubs kinda sorta said they should work with some of the things I wanted (long term) but suggested their secret sauce hubs/accessories were better.

So, I will upgrade my personal iPad so I can wall mount one in the lounge area.

The security cam will pop up on the TVs as I have Apple TVs which act as the hub for Homekit.

One weekend soon I will get up into the ceiling and put the CAT5E cabling in. Need a dust proof cabinet for the ethernet hub, and then run some extra cables for POE for other security cams + UPS so security still runs while power is off.

But yes, ZWave may come into it too.....

Handle9

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#3248175 12-Jun-2024 20:13

I just find it odd you rejected home assistant which is way better supported, has far more development and is arguably easier to use and getting easier every month. The HomeKit bridge on HA works extremely well.

sir1963

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#3248182 12-Jun-2024 20:22

Handle9: I just find it odd you rejected home assistant which is way better supported, has far more development and is arguably easier to use and getting easier every month. The HomeKit bridge on HA works extremely well.

I may well be completely wrong in my decision... won't be the first time, nor will it be the last.

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#3248201 12-Jun-2024 20:45

sir1963:
Handle9: I just find it odd you rejected home assistant which is way better supported, has far more development and is arguably easier to use and getting easier every month. The HomeKit bridge on HA works extremely well.

I may well be completely wrong in my decision... won't be the first time, nor will it be the last.

I don’t think the hub is as important than the zigbee network design.

If you get that wrong it’s very consequential to reliability as the network grows. Once ikea launches you’ll have easy access to a heap more reasonably priced zigbee lighting and outlets.

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davidcole

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#3248203 12-Jun-2024 20:49

I found corner cheap. But relatively annoying to get devices here.

Went fairly bit into zwave. But that gets real pricey.

Now tend to be WiFi. (Shelly, tasmota devices)

sir1963

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#3249681 16-Jun-2024 16:31

Its interesting to see how much stuff there is on Trademe...I have my doubts that most of it does not have COC etc docs.

People who buy this stuff that goes on to cause a fire may have an interesting time with their insurance company.

For sensors (battery powered) then its a who cares, but if its mains powered and sitting in my walls it will be PDL/Clipsal (yes both Schneider ) or some such other brand that I can document for an electrical certificate.

davidcole

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#3249682 16-Jun-2024 16:34

sir1963:
Its interesting to see how much stuff there is on Trademe...I have my doubts that most of it does not have COC etc docs.

People who buy this stuff that goes on to cause a fire may have an interesting time with their insurance company.

For sensors (battery powered) then its a who cares, but if its mains powered and sitting in my walls it will be PDL/Clipsal (yes both Schneider ) or some such other brand that I can document for an electrical certificate.

You mean like Shelly (1pm, 2pm) or fibaro (zwave) or aeotec (zwave)?

Handle9

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#3249690 16-Jun-2024 17:49

sir1963:
Its interesting to see how much stuff there is on Trademe...I have my doubts that most of it does not have COC etc docs.

People who buy this stuff that goes on to cause a fire may have an interesting time with their insurance company.

For sensors (battery powered) then its a who cares, but if its mains powered and sitting in my walls it will be PDL/Clipsal (yes both Schneider ) or some such other brand that I can document for an electrical certificate.

An SDOC is for products, a COC is for the installation.

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