Slingshot Upgrade to VDSL from ADSL

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fastrax

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Wannabe Geek

#215333 22-Jun-2017 14:25

Hi Everyone,

I am looking for some technical advice as I am struggling with providers in the Island Bay area. I am up on Volga Street in the hill and I am in the process of being upgraded to VDSL. This is through Slingshot.

I am currently on ADSL and my line test from modem are giving me the following:

Downstream / Upstream
SNR Margin (0.1dB): 7.8 / 8.8
Attenuation (0.1dB): 35.6 / 10.5
Output Power (dBm): 19.5 / 9.3
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 12664 / 1108
Rate (Kbps): 11660 / 1029

I tried to have VDSL installed three years ago and basically ended up having to revert back to ADSL. The line was too poor. This resulted in no internet and a lot of backwards and forwards for a week or so.

Coincidentally we have an engineer in our office today doing our telephony system and network. He had a look at the above and said "You have no chance of getting stable VDSL on that".

I currently hold little to no hope that when I get home VDSL will be up and running. (It is due to be installed today)

I will let you know how things progress...

Doing research online there is a lot of people saying getting master splitters can help. (But I have no clue)

Also what are my options? Can I pursue Chorus or anything to get the lines to the house improved etc (I am quite a way back from the road in a house built back in 1990 so am unsure on how good the lines would be).

Any help, advice or tips would be greatly appreciated.

Richard

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#1805252 22-Jun-2017 14:56

35dB, unlikely to be good for VDSL at all.

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RunningMan

8961 posts

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#1805263 22-Jun-2017 15:14

If your downstream attenuation is 3.56dB as the units claim, then VDSL should be great.

Having said that, I'd suggest it's actually 35.6dB (based on the DS sync rate), and from that, VDSL is unlikely to even connect, and if it does, it will be dreadfully unreliable.

The Chorus maps seem to show almost all of Volga St as in zone for VDSL though, so your internal wiring, or lead-in from the street may actually be in poor condition.

A master filter basically isolates your xDSL connection from the remainder of the internal wiring in the premises - depending on the condition of the wiring, this can be a very significant improvement.

See how the install goes today - it's possible you'll get a decent result, based on the Chorus maps, but only if they find (and rectify) whatever is causing the poor connection at the moment.

fastrax

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#1805282 22-Jun-2017 15:31

Thanks for the speedy advice! It is much appreciated. Quickly reading up it would seem that the distance from the node is going to be the most likely culprit for the high attenuation.

I will wait until I get the result later on. I am guessing it may not even be done today, as I am currently still connected using remote desktop and the connection should drop off when its changed over.

Last time they put it down to distance from the node and also poor lines.

If that is the case, is there anything that I can do?? Or anything you would suggest discussing with my service provider or the chorus engineer?

Am I entitled to anything such as having the lines to the house improved etc?

RunningMan

8961 posts

Uber Geek

#1805301 22-Jun-2017 16:14

fastrax:[snip] Quickly reading up it would seem that the distance from the node is going to be the most likely culprit for the high attenuation.

All else being equal, more line length = higher attenuation. But in your case, I wonder if there is something else at play. The 36dB odd attenuation is far above what I would expect a VDSL connection to tolerate, but the Chorus maps essentially say the entire street is OK for VDSL.

Accepting the maps are a guide only, and not definitive, is does mean there could be something on your particular line increasing the attenuation, like a bad joint, or corroded cable - see if anything is found with the install today.

As for fixing situations like this - it really depends where the issue is. If it's inside your premises, it's your problem, and a master filter is basically the cure.

A slim possibility is with Slingshot, you could be on an LLU connection to an exchange, but moving to VDSL you are migrated to a Chorus connection from a closer cabinet - unlikely, as this would be a fairly uncommon situation nowadays.

fastrax

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#1805490 23-Jun-2017 08:44

Good Morning!

So I can confirm I have VDSL installed and up and running! The performance however is rather lack luster.

Downstream Upstream
Line Coding(Trellis): On / On
SNR Margin (0.1 dB): 106 / 85
Attenuation (0.1 dB): 275 / 0
Output Power (0.1 dBm): 184 / 105
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 14777 / 1187

I have spoken to slingshot this morning and they are going to run a 24 hour line test. To see what results they get. From there they can then escalate to the line company.

I will keep you updated to help any other VDSL sourcing individual in the Island Bay area looking for some info on this!

UPDATE: I have also just spoken to Vodafone about their cable offering in the area. It does appear to be in the area but the person I spoke to said it would take upto 30 days to get a technician out to see if it was even possible and even then could require significant ground works to be installed. This could be an option if the VDSL doesn't speed up!

Richard

Jase2985

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#1805508 23-Jun-2017 09:44

if you can get fibre get that over vodafones cable options

i guess this is one of those told you so situations, you had a poor ADSL line which translated into a poor VDSL line not really any better than the ADSL one.

Sideface

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#1805510 23-Jun-2017 09:52

fastrax:

So I can confirm I have VDSL installed and up and running! The performance however is rather lack luster.

<snip>

UPDATE: I have also just spoken to Vodafone about their cable offering in the area. It does appear to be in the area but the person I spoke to said it would take up to 30 days to get a technician out to see if it was even possible and even then could require significant ground works to be installed.

With a downstream attenuation of 27.5 dB, your VDSL speeds are exactly what you would expect.

If you sign up for "FibreX" cable you will get a 2-year contract with a big early termination fee.

"Real" UFB fibre is coming to Island Bay in late 2019.

Disclosure - I'm on cable in Clyde St, Island Bay, and have detailed cable performance stats for the past 3 years.

PM me if you want more info.

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Move to New Zealand's best fibre broadband service (affiliate link). Free setup code: R587125ERQ6VE. Note that to use Quic Broadband you must be comfortable with configuring your own router.

smalltrader

174 posts

Master Geek

#1805515 23-Jun-2017 10:03

fastrax:

Good Morning!

So I can confirm I have VDSL installed and up and running! The performance however is rather lack luster.

Downstream Upstream
Line Coding(Trellis): On / On
SNR Margin (0.1 dB): 106 / 85
Attenuation (0.1 dB): 275 / 0
Output Power (0.1 dBm): 184 / 105
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 14777 / 1187

I have spoken to slingshot this morning and they are going to run a 24 hour line test. To see what results they get. From there they can then escalate to the line company.

I will keep you updated to help any other VDSL sourcing individual in the Island Bay area looking for some info on this!

UPDATE: I have also just spoken to Vodafone about their cable offering in the area. It does appear to be in the area but the person I spoke to said it would take upto 30 days to get a technician out to see if it was even possible and even then could require significant ground works to be installed. This could be an option if the VDSL doesn't speed up!

Richard

Others have already commented about your line quality issue. The only thing I would add is if VDSL is giving you 14MBps vs 11Mbps ADSL then it is probably worth keeping as you pay the same price for VDSL vs ADSL. Whilist small, it is still roughly a 25% to 30% increase in download speed with VDSL

Do perform a SpeedTest to confirm actual throughput though as you may get excessive interleave / latency with VDSL on a poor line. Despite the higher sync speed you may actually get worst performance in real life so worth checking with SpeedTest.

Also ddDLM will adjust your sync speed up or down in due course. What you see now is not final.

fastrax

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#1805516 23-Jun-2017 10:03

Less of a 'told you so situation', as I always suspected this would be the issue and was seeking advice. Thanks for the input nonetheless.

The fact that UFB isn't coming until late 2019, is really disappointing. Hence why I am looking at intermediary solution. To be honest a two year contract doesn't sound too bad for 100mbps! It just depends if it is available at the top of Volga Street and vodafone don't mind digging things up to get it to the house.

In terms of performance on cable what's your average downstream and upstream over there in Clyde St, i'm also presuming it's pretty stable? Are you through Vodafone? I can PM if you prefer but its nice to have public for other users to find in the future :)

@smalltrader - I couldn't agree more! Its actually $10 cheaper and for approximate 40 to 50% realised download speed its not a bad thing! I have been doing speed tests through linetest.nz and speedtest.net and they are pretty consistent with the D/L speeds I am getting. I have gone from ADSL 1mpbs to about 1.5mpbs. So it has been an improvement that's for sure!

Richard

Sideface

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#1805545 23-Jun-2017 10:45

fastrax:

<snip>

In terms of performance on cable what's your average downstream and upstream over there in Clyde St, i'm also presuming it's pretty stable? Are you through Vodafone? I can PM if you prefer but its nice to have public for other users to find in the future :)

<snip>

Have a look at this: TrueNet May 2017 Urban Broadband Report

The report covers performance of VF "FibreX" cable and VF UFB.

See: May 2017: NZ Webpage Average Speed.

This report matches my own experience.

OOKLA speed tests almost always give 200/20 Mbps (as advertised), but real-world performance is much slower:

Typical downstream - 25 Mbps - at best, 80 Mbps (very rarely) - NEVER 200Mbps.
Typical upstream - 20 Mbps

Outages used to be a major problem, but this has improved over the last 2 months.

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sbiddle

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#1805549 23-Jun-2017 10:55

How is your house wiring? Do you have a master filter installed or your modem plugged directly into the demarc? if not this should be your first step.

Without knowing your exact address it's not possible to comment but while copper is poor in some parts up there your speeds should potentially be higher than that. The fact your ADSL2+ was poor indicates you potentially have poor wiring in your home vs limitations of the Chorus copper and/or your distance from the cabinet.

fastrax

7 posts

Wannabe Geek

#1805704 23-Jun-2017 15:24

Thanks Sideface, that TrueNet report was a fascinating read! Really very valuable in learning whats really available!

@sbiddle I am not too sure on the wiring to be honest. Its a 1990 build and seems in pretty good shape. I have tested every port in the house with the modem and currently have it through the best one. (When I say ports I just mean the regular old phone type port. Its not an Ethernet style cat connection.

I am unsure where the demarc is on the house, but will do a hunt over the weekend. I am pretty certain there will not be a master filter fitted.

Does anyone know a reliable Wellington master filter installer? Or are they fairly simple to install? I am guessing it is just one of these?

https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/MODDNX001/DYNAMIX-XDSL-Master-Wired-in-filter-ADSLADSL2VDSLV

Doesn't seem overly complicated to wire in.

Thanks for the advice and learnings so far people. It has been really useful!

Richard

coffeebaron

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#1805716 23-Jun-2017 15:45

If you get VDSL sync in each jack point, then you do not have a master filter. Based on that, I highly suggest getting one installed. This can be arranged through you ISP.

Rural IT and Broadband support.

Broadband troubleshooting and master filter installs.
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RunningMan

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#1805717 23-Jun-2017 15:45

fastrax:[snip]I have tested every port in the house with the modem and currently have it through the best one.

And therein lies the problem. Phone wiring in a house was (naturally!) designed for voice frequencies - up to around 10kHz. VDSL is pushing a signal through the same cables that is up to 12MHz - about 1000 times higher frequency. These frequencies are very particular in terms of wiring quality.

The unused phone jacks, and branches of cable leading to them work like a sea wall to waves, causing reflections and interference that significantly degrades the signal. A master splitter is an easy way of getting a good transmission line to the modem - it basically creates a single clean line from the demarcation point to the modem, and bypasses all the old voice wiring.

Chorus can install this for you - most ISPs call this a full install or similar - about $200. @cyril7 was looking for someone to do an install in Wellington recently - not sure if he found someone??

EDIT: Snap! Posted at the same time as @coffeebaron

Sideface

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#1805718 23-Jun-2017 15:46

fastrax:

Thanks Sideface, that TrueNet report was a fascinating read! Really very valuable in learning whats really available!

@sbiddle I am not too sure on the wiring to be honest. Its a 1990 build and seems in pretty good shape. <snip>

The age and general condition of your house is not a reliable guide to the condition of your wiring.

We once lived in a 5-year-old house (not in Island Bay) with terrible VDSL performance, until we got a master filter installed.

EDIT: +1 to RunningMan and CoffeeBaron (the last 2 posts)

Sideface

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