2degrees: Changes to IP Addresses (CGNAT)

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › 2degrees: Changes to IP Addresses (CGNAT)

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#2305054 24-Aug-2019 09:52

ripdog: Are... are you really blaming a DDOS-protection platform which has minimal censorship for NZs worst mass murder?

Not wanting to go OT but minimal censorship is an interesting way of saying underlying support for all the most vile sites on the internet.
Obviously you don't think that deranged people having a supportive community protected by anonymity is a bad thing.

skewt

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#2305056 24-Aug-2019 09:59

ripdog:
I just hope it's not going to be $10 a month for a public IP... Please make it a static charge like Bigpipe was.

I personally don’t think we should be paying extra to keep something working that currently works fine

toejam316

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#2305060 24-Aug-2019 10:05

I suspect it'll be a slow change and not an immediate dump of all current customers into the cg-nat pool, and I also suspect for the 0.01% who aren't happy with the change, they may offer to just leave them on public dynamic for the foreseeable, and let that pool quietly deplete itself.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

rugrat

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#2305179 24-Aug-2019 11:36

toejam316: I suspect it'll be a slow change and not an immediate dump of all current customers into the cg-nat pool, and I also suspect for the 0.01% who aren't happy with the change, they may offer to just leave them on public dynamic for the foreseeable, and let that pool quietly deplete itself.

Are you saying they will do it without warning?
Then if something starts not working someone could spend hours trying to see what’s gone wrong, and not realise it’s a change that 2degrees has made.

And then when do realise how long to get through to someone to opt out, change it back.

I don’t need a public IP 100% of the time, how about a setting where you set public IP and a timer for how long for?

hio77

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#2305183 24-Aug-2019 11:41

rugrat:
toejam316: I suspect it'll be a slow change and not an immediate dump of all current customers into the cg-nat pool, and I also suspect for the 0.01% who aren't happy with the change, they may offer to just leave them on public dynamic for the foreseeable, and let that pool quietly deplete itself.

Are you saying they will do it without warning?
Then if something starts not working someone could spend hours trying to see what’s gone wrong, and not realise it’s a change that 2degrees has made.

Having seen how the 2d team typically make changes. I'd be surprised if that was the case.

I'm sure if nick had the spare time before that article was made public in this thread there would be very different discussions.

Ipv4 extention is going to happen sooner or later...

#include <std_disclaimer>

Any comments made are personal opinion and do not reflect directly on the position my current or past employers may have.

Tracer

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#2305235 24-Aug-2019 13:23

BarTender:
Fairly sure that Spark will never peer with Cloudflare.
The attack in Christchurch is a really good reason to never use Cloudflare.

You really push that narrative hard every time Cloudflare is mentioned. Maybe you can make a thread in the political forum and keep it there rather than polluting technical threads.

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#2305238 24-Aug-2019 13:38

Tracer:
BarTender:
Fairly sure that Spark will never peer with Cloudflare.
The attack in Christchurch is a really good reason to never use Cloudflare.

You really push that narrative hard every time Cloudflare is mentioned. Maybe you can make a thread in the political forum and keep it there rather than polluting technical threads.

Yet people keep on complaining about why Spark doesn't peer with Cloudflare as if it's some huge injustice for their experience.
I know you may not like it but the truth is not a narrative.

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toejam316

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#2305246 24-Aug-2019 13:57

BarTender:
Tracer:

BarTender:
Fairly sure that Spark will never peer with Cloudflare.
The attack in Christchurch is a really good reason to never use Cloudflare.

You really push that narrative hard every time Cloudflare is mentioned. Maybe you can make a thread in the political forum and keep it there rather than polluting technical threads.

Yet people keep on complaining about why Spark doesn't peer with Cloudflare as if it's some huge injustice for their experience.
I know you may not like it but the truth is not a narrative.

I'm VERY interested to know your source for this, because I can't think of any stances taken publicly beyond the intention to prevent the public from being exposed to the website in question.

Cloudflare had nothing to do with the user generated content, and realistically has the same obligation any other big multinational service provider.

I'm sure if Cloudflare saw value in peering and approached Spark, they'd receive the same sort of response as anyone else who'd like to peer with Spark.

I wonder, what horrendous stuff is @freitasm hiding here, behind the gates of Cloudflare?

Regarding the changes, I don't expect they'll be anything other than measured, informed and cautious.

2degrees are pretty good about not impacting on their customers existing services where they can help it.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

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#2305306 24-Aug-2019 15:27

If you want to start a Cloudflare thread then I suggest you do. Stay on topic.

Tinkerisk

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#2305416 24-Aug-2019 17:14

toejam316:

It makes a lot more sense for 2degrees to invest into CG-NAT rather than buying more IPv4 space, and it makes sense, given how they've grown over the past few years.

CG-NAT isn't cheap and has limited scalability. CG-NAT is delaying Double NAT due to port and checksum re-calculation and still doesn't mean that each customer gets his own IPv4 address. For the customer it has downsides only.

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#2305420 24-Aug-2019 17:32

For the vast and I mean vast majority CG-NAT is not noticeable, as for Nat reprocessing delay etc in reality its not noticable and with readily available isp routing hardware throughput for GigE tails should not be a problem, that said the stated vast majority don't buy GigE only 100Mb/s or may be 200.

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#2305429 24-Aug-2019 17:41

Tinkerisk:

toejam316:

It makes a lot more sense for 2degrees to invest into CG-NAT rather than buying more IPv4 space, and it makes sense, given how they've grown over the past few years.

CG-NAT isn't cheap and has limited scalability. CG-NAT is delaying Double NAT due to port and checksum re-calculation and still doesn't mean that each customer gets his own IPv4 address. For the customer it has downsides only.

CG-NAT is cheaper than buying more IPv4 space, but certainly it isn't the optimal solution. IPv6 is the solution. The only other option open to 2degrees is to start insane cap-ex buying smaller ISPs to lay hands on a bunch of /22s (seems ridiculous), the IP space has to come from somewhere.
A brief googling shows the Snap (2degrees) having around 195k IPs in their AS, and another 131k on their Two Degrees AS. How many customers do they have, excluding allocations for businesses, growth, etc. they don't have a ton of room to breathe, if they want to keep growing.

My suspicion is this is a decision being made for FUTURE customers, in the hopes that they don't onboard too many before they get to the point where maybe IPv4 isn't a missed thing, and we can start using IPv6-to-IPv4 gateways, instead of the other way around.

Edit: and as for what cyril7 said, how many of those GigE customers are even going to be behind CG-Nat? gut feeling is not a ton, and the ones that would be certainly wouldn't be the ones who'd notice any performance impact that CG-NAT might cause.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

PolicyGuy

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#2305438 24-Aug-2019 18:01

There is actually a massive amount of unused IPv4 address space out there, but the people who hold it either don't know that they have it, don't know it has a market value (~$US10 / address last time I looked), or can't be bothered to do anything about it.

I recall two previous employers who obtained "legacy" IPv4 address space - i.e. from Waikato University before APNIC ever existed - which is largely or completely unused. One has three /24's of which they advertise IIRC three actual addresses, so that have 2 & 15/16ths which could be sold, and the other has a /19 as well as a substantial APNIC-issued block, the /19 is completely unused and probably nobody there now has any knowledge of it.

I'm sure that there are many other organisations who obtained legacy IPv4 addresses, then changed over internally to RFC1918 addressing but never relinquished their now-unused IPv4, then merged / got taken over and the institutional knowledge vanished. Since APNIC doesn't know about this allocation, they don't get any bills for it, so have no way to know about it and no incentive to do anything about it.

Edit: correct typo

yitz

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#2305468 24-Aug-2019 20:25

PolicyGuy:

[..] One has three /24's of which they advertise IIRC three actual addresses, so that have 2 & 15/16ths which could be sold [..]

Maybe they need it for multi-homing? It depends on how the network is designed as to wastefulness of IP space, maybe 2degrees could still have enough if they had all subscribers terminating in Auckland? Most if not all ISPs who have operated CG-NAT in NZ have terminated only in Auckland.

PolicyGuy

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#2305507 24-Aug-2019 21:45

yitz:

PolicyGuy:

[..] One has three /24's of which they advertise IIRC three actual addresses, so that have 2 & 15/16ths which could be sold [..]

Maybe they need it for multi-homing? It depends on how the network is designed as to wastefulness of IP space.

No they don't do multi-homing, they actually have no need for Provider Independent addressing at all, they could just use a /31 from their upstream provider.
But when they changed from Netware IPX/SPX to a Unix system with this "crazy new TCP/IP stuff" back in the mid 1990s they knew you needed to get IP addresses from Waikato, sent off an email and were given three "Class C" addresses.
Then a couple of years later they discovered RFC1918 and were able to segment their rapidly growing internal network much better and stopped using their Waikato addresses for internal traffic, just one single address for their external-facing mail server and another one for the firewall IIRC. I think they used another one for their web server when they got one of them new-fangled Interweb thingies, but that was after I left.

Ah, the Good Ole Days!

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