2degrees: Changes to IP Addresses (CGNAT)

Forums › 2degrees (including Slingshot, Orcon, Flip, Stuff Fibre, MyRepublic, 2talk and Vocus) › 2degrees: Changes to IP Addresses (CGNAT)

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Ultimate Geek

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#2306592 27-Aug-2019 09:12

cyril7:

Delorean:

So reading this tread, the main issue would be if you have set up a service like dyndns would be affected?

Depends why you have dyndns setup, if its to know your public IP to allow you to track it to connect via port forwards to lan resources, or if you are using it to register for a dns proxy service (like dns4me) then yes it will impact you and you would be better not on CG-NAT.

Cyril

Yes, its used to basically give me a "static" IP - as this was a cheaper option than paying $120 pa

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Oblivian

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#2306607 27-Aug-2019 09:43

Perhaps the first post needs a quick edit with large bolded disclaimer added before we start scaring people into further queries or ringing helpdesks with concerns in this early phase of change.?

Along the lines of 'if you don't understand if this will effect you - it probably won't. Do nothing. Carry on

(There's no nice way to skirt around it really?)

Since some of the later affirmations are being over-looked.

Guess we're all well aware there will be 2 groups that stumble across this thread, the ones that know they have inbound services that may be effected so sitting back and watching whilst building a backup plan. But perhaps should make a quick change to cater for the greater population that doesn't know what NAT is, or uPnP on an off-the-shelf(or china special) device is and more likely to panic - even if it's already cloud based

Almost see room for a NZ specific CGNAT ISP explination/faq type post with a basic list of stuff that may not work for joe bloggs considering enabled ISPs - listing popular things people blindly read and action port forward instructions for, minecraft with mates etc.

kiwibob1

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#2306629 27-Aug-2019 10:19

Oblivian:

Almost see room for a NZ specific CGNAT ISP explination/faq type post with a basic list of stuff that may not work for joe bloggs considering enabled ISPs - listing popular things people blindly read and action port forward instructions for, minecraft with mates etc.

An explainer would be good especially for people who run into difficulties with CGNAT. The sad thing is that some people believe that all problems will be solved by a static IPv4 address when that is and will remain a short term kluge.

One thing that might resolve some 2degrees users issues with CGNAT is to provide them with a static IPv6 address as part of the service. There is no justification imo for an extra charge for a static IPv6 address given that they are truly abundent and there is no obvious reason for dynamic allocation.

timmmay

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#2306649 27-Aug-2019 10:56

My Huawei P9 on Vodafone doesn't seem to support IPv6, which means I need to rely on IPv4 for a while yet to get VPN access to my internal home network, via dynamic DNS provider. I don't know if I can still do that when CGNat is applied or not.

rugrat

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#2306689 27-Aug-2019 12:17

They’re going to move me to CG-Nat, (don’t know time period etc) and then for me report back if any problems. Maybe someone in earlier batch may have struck problem.

It looks like my service will work, put if someone else gets the same Public IP as me whoever updated their IP last will be the settings the service uses.

Just because it works at start no guarantee someone else won’t join service later on with same public IP.

Could be fun times ahead battling someone for who’s settings to use.

skewt

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#2306718 27-Aug-2019 13:10

rugrat: They’re going to move me to CG-Nat, (don’t know time period etc) and then for me report back if any problems. Maybe someone in earlier batch may have struck problem.

It looks like my service will work, put if someone else gets the same Public IP as me whoever updated their IP last will be the settings the service uses.

Just because it works at start no guarantee someone else won’t join service later on with same public IP.

Could be fun times ahead battling someone for who’s settings to use.

using something like dns4me?

When I helped a friend try use it on bigpipe a few years ago with CGNAT turned on, just refreshing individual pages would change your IP address each time so it was hopeless.

rugrat

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#2306732 27-Aug-2019 13:38

skewt:
rugrat: They’re going to move me to CG-Nat, (don’t know time period etc) and then for me report back if any problems. Maybe someone in earlier batch may have struck problem.

It looks like my service will work, put if someone else gets the same Public IP as me whoever updated their IP last will be the settings the service uses.

Just because it works at start no guarantee someone else won’t join service later on with same public IP.

Could be fun times ahead battling someone for who’s settings to use.

using something like dns4me?

When I helped a friend try use it on bigpipe a few years ago with CGNAT turned on, just refreshing individual pages would change your IP address each time so it was hopeless.

Yep, if the public IP changes to often that will break it to.
Seems 2degrees doesn’t fully understand implications and like it or not customers are being used as Guinea pigs, and no guarantee Some future activity will be ok with it to.

If it looks like they think CG-NAT is ok and not given private static or left as is now will probably look at changing in future anyway even if some think it’s an other reaction.

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Oblivian

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#2306769 27-Aug-2019 14:50

I was about to re-invent the wheel with some pretty pictures.

But this shows it nicely. Just needs some more doodles over top how data originating from the interwebby-ness can get lost once it approaches the magic blue box in the middle and not find ones minecraft server due to the local addressing which is the only thing individual addressing visible your side

https://www.a10networks.com/blog/carrier-grade-nat/

allio

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#2306863 27-Aug-2019 17:00

Here's how you know you'll be affected negatively by CG-NAT:

You currently have port forwards set up and/or use NAT-PMP/UPNP port forwarding in your router
You want/need to connect to a computer/device inside your home network from outside your home network
You use bittorrent/other peer to peer downloading systems

I do all of these things on a regular basis and CG-NAT is totally unacceptable for me. When I switched to Bigpipe a few years ago they initially didn't set up my public IP, and it was like using the internet with my arms cut off.

Heat pumps and light bulbs, unless you are using an extremely geeky home-brew system, almost certainly communicate with an external server, and the app on your phone then connects to that external server. CG-NAT won't affect them.

The only impact on most casual internet users will be slower bittorrent downloads, and other more esoteric forms of P2P that work slowly/unpredictably. Fortunately less relevant in 2019 than it was in 2014.

Tinkerisk

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#2306864 27-Aug-2019 17:06

CN-NAT mainly affects ONLY people who have servers on OWN premises who need to be reached from the public internet. This could be self-hosted OWN cloud services (like NextCloud, OwnCloud, SeaFile, ...) for teams or friends, communities, social groups not willing to trust big data collector's solutions (like OneDrive, GoogleDrive, Dropbox, ...) for free (really???). It affects as well people who operate OWN VPN servers or OWN webservices/webpages.

If you rely on and fully trust what you are offered by any IoT gimmick seller (whether in China or not), you are NOT affected. Comfortable isn't it? And it opens the door to sell even more anti-privacy and spying junk.

It's true as well that the average Joe can be leaved comletely untouched by the CG-NAT discussion and left in his consumer relationship. But CG-NAT clearly hurts any chance to keep privacy by operating OWN servers without the involvement of the big players. It's really not the masses.

And yes, Port forwarding can be a real safety issue - sure. But it's the only simple way to reach OWN services from the public internet without dodgy third party involvement when you know what you are doing. Beyond that, for me (and any more critical person) not facing CG-NAT is a mandatory and important privacy requirement and some kind of democratising the internet.

Just my 2 cents (pennies).

- NET: FTTH, OPNsense, 10G backbone, GWN APs, ipPBX
- SRV: 12 RU HA server cluster, 0.1 PB storage on premise
- IoT: thread, zigbee, tasmota, BidCoS, LoRa, WX suite, IR
- 3D: two 3D printers, 3D scanner, CNC router, laser cutter

Oblivian

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#2306870 27-Aug-2019 17:27

Tinkerisk:

CN-NAT mainly affects ONLY people who have servers on OWN premises who need to be reached from the public internet. This could be self-hosted OWN cloud services (like NextCloud, OwnCloud, SeaFile, ...) for teams or friends, communities, social groups not willing to trust big data collector's solutions (like OneDrive, GoogleDrive, Dropbox, ...) for free (really???). It affects as well people who operate OWN VPN servers or OWN webservices/webpages.

Somewhat the angle I was aiming for. The bulleted list like above covers the majority who know the technical reasons behind each

But can't help think at same time there's likely a bunch of people at the slightest hint of something not working how they think it should, do pinholes anyway cause 'the internets told me so' even if not actually required. (Vs ones that go 'I don't understand that, I ain't doin' it' and find it works anyway)

Likewise yes, some Smart home devices may use inbound pinholes (again they may not realise what the manual made em do). Mix them with the middle-server cloud negotiated ones - Joe Bloggs won't understand the difference cause they followed instructions or use their phone and 'the internets' to see something that is sitting at home so it MUST need an inbound connection - and bam, inadvertently think they are in the above categories all the same and jump on the phones.

boosacnoodle

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#2306884 27-Aug-2019 17:45

I'm surprised a bunch of "geeks" in here are mentioning port forwarding, etc., given that 2degrees has offered IPv6 for quite some time now. I thought you'd all be using it given that you are hosting the services yourself.

What's stopping you just using IPv6?

Tinkerisk

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#2306888 27-Aug-2019 17:50

boosacnoodle:

What's stopping you just using IPv6?

The other portion of internet users (clients) not having/using IPv6. Are you sure about the definition of a geek?

amanzi

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#2306906 27-Aug-2019 18:02

@timmmay:

What's a good ISP that doesn't use CGNat, has good routing, and good customer service? Vodafone and Bigpipe ruled out, Vodafone for poor service and routing, Bigpipe for not having a support phone.

I've always been fairly happy with Spark as a mobile provider. How's their routing and general fiber offering?

I've been happy on Voyager for the last year or so. They also offer static IPv4 and IPv6 which is great (I have both). The only downside is they cost an extra $10 or $20 per month compared to the others (based on my own looking around).

djtOtago

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#2306909 27-Aug-2019 18:05

boosacnoodle:

<snip> .....What's stopping you just using IPv6? </snip>

I can't remember an IPv6 address :)

Edit: Added context to post

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