Hybrid TV, Sky face off over EPG data

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davidcole

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#280031 7-Dec-2009 16:08

Handle9:

My point though, is lack of Prime EPG going to stop anyone from buying the tivo device? I don't think so, I just think they wont watch sky.

It stopped me. That and the $920 price point meant that I bought a MagicTV for $700.

Does the magicTV have the 8 Day EPG for prime? Where does it come from, EIT or mheg5?

And yes I understand there's a recession and all that, but a $200 diffierence isn't that much (when you're talking a total of $700-$900). I suppose it's 20%. But the tivo is supposed to include the ondemand features and the streaming/multi tivo functionality. If they work properly, then surely that's worth the extra $200?

If you were not in the market for ondemand at all then yes I can understand going for the cheapest dual tuning PVR you can get.

My personal opinion btw, I don't work for Tivi, wont be buying one etc (have my own pvr). Just interested in your decision process.

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Handle9

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#280041 7-Dec-2009 16:46

davidcole:
Handle9:

My point though, is lack of Prime EPG going to stop anyone from buying the tivo device? I don't think so, I just think they wont watch sky.

It stopped me. That and the $920 price point meant that I bought a MagicTV for $700.

Does the magicTV have the 8 Day EPG for prime? Where does it come from, EIT or mheg5?

And yes I understand there's a recession and all that, but a $200 diffierence isn't that much (when you're talking a total of $700-$900). I suppose it's 20%. But the tivo is supposed to include the ondemand features and the streaming/multi tivo functionality. If they work properly, then surely that's worth the extra $200?

If you were not in the market for ondemand at all then yes I can understand going for the cheapest dual tuning PVR you can get.

My personal opinion btw, I don't work for Tivi, wont be buying one etc (have my own pvr). Just interested in your decision process.

MagicTV has the 8 day MHEG5 EPG. like all the freeview approved boxes. To be honest an EIT implementation would be much nicer (the epg would look like all the other menues etc) but that's the price you pay to get freeview approved and get the EPG data.

The MagicTV has a 500GB drive (bigger than tivo) and IMO does a damn good job as a PVR.

The ondemand features were not a factor in my decision process as I don't use Telecom as an ISP and I'm not at all likely to use them in the future. I do streaming to my PS3 so that wasn't a factor either.

At that point $220 (which is after all about 30% more) was significant for not a whole lot more functionality as well as an incomplete EPG which is the THE killer feature of a PVR.

mail2mm

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#280557 8-Dec-2009 23:56

davidcole: Also reading that article, are there really people that wouldn't buy a Tivo just because there are no prime listings? I mean come on, if you've never had Digital TV before, are you really going to miss the EPG data,

I have a Sony HDD recorder used on SD FTA TV in Auckland. I am looking for a replacement that will allow me to record Freeview HD. The TiVo looked like that solution but I do not want to need a newspaper TV program listing in order to then manually enter information to record Prime or Maori TV. Yes, I do watch both from time to time. The TiVo is an attractive package but I do not have a large video store on my home network and doubt I would buy product using the CASPA service even if it did offer a comprehensive, attractive selection. If I wanted to pay for many movies I would subscribe to Sky again.

I am also concerned that should Hybrid decide not to support or continue the TiVo service I would be left with a Freeview tuner/recorder with no EPG at all. Yes, an unlikely scenario but possible.

When I get done evaluating my needs and fear of a Hybrid business failure a Freeview PVR such as the Magic TV looks like the solution for me. Freeview and their EPG are unlikely to go away.

Jaxson

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#280624 9-Dec-2009 09:54

Hi all, just had to jump in on this one...

TIVO looks like the way of the future, but released in the present, not the future in my book.

It gets it's EPG via the internet only. This requires you to have the internet in your home. Not everyone has this at the moment, but probably most do that will fork out $900 for the unit. The EPG is available from any internet provider, but the on demand bit is linked only to xtra, is that right?

The EPG situation should have been worked out prior to releasing the product. It seems extremely stupid to be arguing over it now.

All in all it seems like a nice idea that's going to be hard to promote at this stage in NZ:
The on demand stocks are low and probably cost to download, even if the data/traffic charge is free from xtra.
It's only sold at telecom stores.
It requires freeview HD reception coverage.
It only offers free to air channels (though once again is being promoted as competition for sky)

As a thought, couldn't TIVO receive the EIT signals off the freeview Sat service and add these to their own internet EPG broadcast to the TIVO units. I mean it's already broadcast out to NZ free anyway?

Off topic, but personally I'm getting f off with all these limitations on devices. I was going to go the hybrid Hyundai unit but it can only do one thing at a time even thought its got two tuners. I'm about to sell everything and build my own given windows 7 is out now.

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#280629 9-Dec-2009 10:04

TiVo is Freeview|HD (Terrestrial) not Satellite. It requires Freeview coverage because it's a HD service and only Freeview|HD offers this - you can't get HD on analogue. Analogue will ge phased out at some stage - the specific of the analogue switch off will be disclosed at some stage not later than 2012 (the disclosure).

I agree, if you want flexibility, build your own HTPC.

Jaxson

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#280632 9-Dec-2009 10:22

freitasm: TiVo is Freeview|HD (Terrestrial) not Satellite. It requires Freeview coverage because it's a HD service and only Freeview|HD offers this - you can't get HD on analogue. Analogue will ge phased out at some stage - the specific of the analogue switch off will be disclosed at some stage not later than 2012 (the disclosure).

I agree, if you want flexibility, build your own HTPC.

Hi, just to confirm (if this is aimed at my post above), yes I understand it's a freeview HD service.

Jaxson:It requires freeview HD reception coverage.

What I was getting at, is couldn't TIVO themselves (the company) receive the EIT data off the freeview satellite service and use this to create it's EPG that is broadcast out via the internet to the TIVO boxes in people homes. I only say freeview Sat service as this is the only way to get this EIT data in NZ due to freeview chosing not to broadcast this out over it's terrestrial service as well.

Handle9

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#280634 9-Dec-2009 10:29

What I was getting at, is couldn't TIVO themselves (the company) receive the EIT data off the freeview satellite service and use this to create it's EPG that is broadcast out via the internet to the TIVO boxes in people homes. I only say freeview Sat service as this is the only way to get this EIT data in NZ due to freeview chosing not to broadcast this out over it's terrestrial service as well.

They certainly could. What gets in the way is a small thing called copyright. The TV companies copyright their listing data and in some cases actually sell it to the newspapers etc.

Before Tivo was released TV3/C4 were threatening to withhold listings from Tivo. It eventually got sorted but Sky has not granted permission to use their listings.

If they did what you are proposing the would be in breach of copyright, off to court and liable for substantial damages.

This may seem a little crazy but it's the law.

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Jaxson

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#280637 9-Dec-2009 10:33

ok, kinda thought that would be the case. What's stupid as is this data is currently broadcast free to air, I mean free to anyone who wants to receive it. That's kinda been my argument against copyright of programs broadcast free to air, I mean you just gave it out to the public unprotected and now you're getting nancy about what they chose to do with it?!

Handle9

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#280638 9-Dec-2009 10:40

Jaxson: ok, kinda thought that would be the case. What's stupid as is this data is currently broadcast free to air, I mean free to anyone who wants to receive it. That's kinda been my argument against copyright of programs broadcast free to air, I mean you just gave it out to the public unprotected and now you're getting nancy about what they chose to do with it?!

The application of copyright is a little OT but the logical extension of your arguement is that if I get a book out of a library I should be free to photocopy it and sell copies at a bookshop in competition with the author/publisher. I know it's a little far fetched but stranger things have happened (bootleg CDs / DVDs etc).

Copyright and reproduction of content is one of the hardest things to manage in the world of the internet.

wellygary

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#280645 9-Dec-2009 10:50

Handle9:
Jaxson: ok, kinda thought that would be the case. What's stupid as is this data is currently broadcast free to air, I mean free to anyone who wants to receive it. That's kinda been my argument against copyright of programs broadcast free to air, I mean you just gave it out to the public unprotected and now you're getting nancy about what they chose to do with it?!

The application of copyright is a little OT but the logical extension of your arguement is that if I get a book out of a library I should be free to photocopy it and sell copies at a bookshop in competition with the author/publisher. I know it's a little far fetched but stranger things have happened (bootleg CDs / DVDs etc).

Copyright and reproduction of content is one of the hardest things to manage in the world of the internet.

+1

The content that is broadcast,( TV programmes, EPG data) are not being sent to you with no restrictions, they are being licensed to you with restrictions.

Jaxson

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#280730 9-Dec-2009 12:24

Not quite the same as the library where you get access to the content via a loan agreement with them. In this case the info is being beamed directly to my home unencrypted with no contracts with me whatsoever. Realistically I would have thought, if you wanted to protect your data then you'd encrypt it and only let licensed users view it. If you give it out free to air, it's a bit of a stretch to then say you can't do this and this with it, especially without getting me to sign to those terms.

Anyway, I'm just putting an view out there, but I can actually see both sides of this. I know the copyright exists and this is just a discussion.

I'm never going to own a TIVO and think that releasing a product that requires input from third party competitors prior to ensuring those supply agreements are in place is just slack. Couple that with limiting distribution/sales options and restrictions on internet providors for it's unique features and it's all looking rather poor.

Satch

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#280770 9-Dec-2009 13:18

What I've never understood is why the TV Networks are so protective of their TV Listings.

As far as I see it, a TV station's guide is their advertising. They advertise what content they will show so people will watch. Because people watch their content, advertisers pay them money to show commercials promoting their products. The more people the TV station can get to watch their TV shows, the more people the advertisers can reach with their commercials, and the more money the TV station can charge to display the commercials.

If I don't know what is coming up on a channel, and have no guide to reference, I'm sure as hell not going to sit there watching that channel for hours on end just in case something interesting comes on.

If I were a TV Network, I'm be happy for all the free advertising (guide listings) to be used wherever.

I must be missing something fundimental...

Jaxson

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#280794 9-Dec-2009 13:50

Probably the overlap to where TV providers are also becoming hardware providers as well. eg MySky boxes etc

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