New S92a proposal

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#283313 17-Dec-2009 08:08

Tunk: It will prove interesting if a clever person is the first taken to the tribunal if this becomes law, depending on what service they are accused of downloading on.
For example bittorrent will require a large portion to be downloaded from the accused, IP alone will be ripped apart by anyone who knows anything about trackers (fake IPs from trackers or inserted by 3rd party is common).

I definitely agree with fines for false or baseless accusation/insufficient evidence, as I have received a couple of them myself and had the notices removed from my account which would be easy to look up in ISP logs.

Would be interesting, however I think the clever ones will be using VPN's or Seedboxes.

I'm going to be watching this new course of action with alot of interest.

Lias

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#283320 17-Dec-2009 08:39

friedCrumpet:
Lias: Time to start beating the war drums again.

Any policy which allows disconnections is unacceptable.

You have to go to court and hence be proven guilty before this happens. This is miles better than the last law. I don't see the problem, you're not going to get a law that lets you infringe copyright without consequences. Sorry.

Why not? Spanish courts routinely throw out file sharing cases becaues they view non commercial infringement as legal.

That at least is a step in the right direction. The abolition of the legal concepts of copyright, & intellectual property would be better.

I'm a geek, a gamer, a dad, a Quic user, and an IT Professional. I have a full rack home lab, size 15 feet, an epic beard and Asperger's. I'm a bit of a Cypherpunk, who believes information wants to be free and the Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. If you use my Quic signup you can also use the code R570394EKGIZ8 for free setup. Opinions are my own and not the views of my employer.

MULLDOOM

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#283338 17-Dec-2009 09:23

But Guys!
HOW DO 'THEY' KNOW MY FILE IS ILLEGAL? I often send large files to my family in the UK
family video etc etc, and I don't want my isp or other peering thru, with put my permission

mattk

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#283340 17-Dec-2009 09:26

I'm amazed - there is such a huge market sitting here waiting for someone to come and sell an on-demand service. Why are they trying to sue their potential customer base into oblivion?

There is a demand for a digital media delivery service, that's not going to disappear as long as there is content to be downloaded. And it will be downloaded - that cannot be stopped.

wongtop

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#283341 17-Dec-2009 09:36

In these days of prepay 3G broadband your ISP may not even know who you are - so how are they going to send you a notice? If you get disconnected its just a new SIM.

mattk

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#283345 17-Dec-2009 09:40

At $60/GB i'd take my chances with my landline. (owned by my cat of course - they can sue her for every last flea for all i care)

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rossmnz

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#283354 17-Dec-2009 10:00

So who can recommend a good VPN??

lol

Seedboxes require too much uploading on our measley data caps (unless you have bigtime i guess) for it to be feasible imo. I guess you could upload all day/download at night. hmm.

The force is strong with this one!

oldmaknz

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#283358 17-Dec-2009 10:06

iPredator.

psychnurse

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#283361 17-Dec-2009 10:11

rossmnz: So who can recommend a good VPN??

lol

Seedboxes require too much uploading on our measley data caps (unless you have bigtime i guess) for it to be feasible imo. I guess you could upload all day/download at night. hmm.

Check your inbox.
With seebboxes there is no uploading from here it is all done offshore. Seed 24/7 then ftp file down.

Dratsab

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#283386 17-Dec-2009 11:00

I think it's a very reasonable proposal. Let's make an analogy with driving. If you break certain road rules you receive demerit points. Exceed a specified limit of demerit points and you lose your license for a set length of time. This is not permanent and the fault is your own, even though publically you blame others as per the laws of no responsibility. The infringement notices you get are your "warnings" you could be about to lose your license. You disregard them at your own peril.

Similarly, the frequency at which you receive warnings is irrelevant. Get caught speeding three times in a day and you'll be exposing yourself to receiving three tickets, each adding to your demerit points tally.

A difference in this analogy is that other people in your household may be using your account. Notices go to the account holder, so it's up to that person to disregard the laws of no responsibility and do something to ensure they don't get taken to a tribunal. This is a well signposted fork in the road and whichever path you choose to take will determine the outcome. You could:
- ignore the notice (because you're a bit silly)
- dispute the notice with your ISP (always in writing!!)
- stop infringing
- take the issue up with others who use your connection

One golden point I see in all of this is that it takes away the onus of policing connections from most ISP's, who merely become passers-on of notifications and counters thereof. If you dispute a notice (in writing) and it's found to be baseless this shouldn't count as a "strike." You'll always have a copy of your correspondence to fall back on if it does.

Another golden point is going to a tribunal where a copyright holder is going to have to present and prove a case from three notices on. Lawyers aren't cheap so this is going to be costly for them. If they don't prove a case no damages will be awarded. I haven't yet read the proposal in full, but intend to do that over the next few days. It'll be interesting to see what's proposed at the conclusion of a tribunal - case proven or not.

Anyone that has read the proposal properly should be able to answer this. Does the notice count return to zero after a tribunal? If not can the copyright holder keep going back on the fourth, fifth, sixth notice etc? - ie is vexatious litigation catered for?

Serious breaches taken to court for remedy will be interesting. At the moment we have a raft of laws which have various penalties ascribed which are never handed out in full, except in the most serious of cases. A burglar can theoretically receive a maximum of 10 years imprisonment. A "new" burglar is likely to get community service, a burglar with only a few convictions may get a couple of months inside. A career burglar may go away for 4-6 years.

I've stepped away from the driving analogy here because, although the idea behind the process may be the same, actually losing your license isn't necessarily like like losing your internet connection. Simplistically:
- you may have a family and kids who need internet access to complete homework
- you may have a VOIP connection and not everyone may have a mobile phone: how will they call 111 in an emergency?
- you may be a public access point (ie library) so disconnection would be a disproportionate option
- you may be a business with a disgruntled employee (maybe a few of them)

the List goes on...

From what was started with to what's on the table now is a huge leap. I'm very keen to hear what the Creative Freedom Foundation's take on all this is!

meesham

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#283388 17-Dec-2009 11:06

It's a good way of looking at it but the difference is that driving infringements are issued by the police, a not-for-profit (in theory) public service which can be held accountable for their actions. You're right in saying that lawyers aren't cheap, but the bigger rights holders have deep pockets.

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rossmnz

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#283390 17-Dec-2009 11:06

^^^

Excellent post here! good stuff!

The force is strong with this one!

Behodar

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#283411 17-Dec-2009 11:30

rossmnz: 9 months after the first notice your record is clean and you need 3 strikes again to have to pay a fine or get cut off? Thats how i read this first draft.

That's how I read it too; that all notices will drop off after 9 months.

"After nine months, any P2P copyright infringements from the same account holder would start at the beginning of the notice process (first notice)."

rossmnz

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#283427 17-Dec-2009 12:15

The other interesting thing is how the fines will be worked out.

If person a downloads a movie, watches it once and does not continue to upload...will the penalty be what? $50 max for a movie theatre plus dvd release fee?

If a person downloads and uploads to 50 more users...then i would expect the fines to be significantly more.

$15,000 also seems somewhat out of proportion when you consider people paying reparation for GBH etc paying like $1500 or $2000. These scars last a lifetime on someone.

I cant really see judges etc looking on this legislation as anything more than an annoyance and waste of time that could be used to process real criminals.

The force is strong with this one!

old3eyes

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#283441 17-Dec-2009 12:48

mattk: I'm amazed - there is such a huge market sitting here waiting for someone to come and sell an on-demand service. Why are they trying to sue their potential customer base into oblivion?

There is a demand for a digital media delivery service, that's not going to disappear as long as there is content to be downloaded. And it will be downloaded - that cannot be stopped.

Agreed. But most of the download services are based in the US so not available to any one else. All other have to P2P the stuff and get jailed..

Regards,

Old3eyes

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