FTTH Backup Power Supply Unit Debate

Forums › ICT Policies and Regulation › FTTH Backup Power Supply Unit Debate

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WorldxChange

#368872 17-Aug-2010 19:56

PenultimateHop:
maverick: The million dollar question now is who is responsible and accepts liability for the unit, maintenance, etc ?

That's a big issue.

Another one with a single battery system is whether the ONT vendor will warrant the ONT if it's used with a non-standard (i.e. theirs) power supply.

Exactly and we have this exact issue right now as AlarmNZ is well aware, we struck this exact issue during talks around this very topic during initial testing.

Yes I am a employee of WxC (My Profile) ... but I do have my own opinions as well

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maverick

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#368884 17-Aug-2010 20:12

ALARMNZ: Maverick

Getting the Customer to look at lights etc is a waste of time... all the ISP helpdesk needs to do is confirm the router is functional either by using the customers web browser or drawing Dail tone from the POTs port.

Dealing with item (10)

If both the customer and the ISP can both see the router both the customer still cannot see the internet then the ISP can trigger the APSU ( Alarm Power Supply Unit) which will make a DHCP request and send a message to the customer or ISP thus proving out the entire system outside the customers perhaps flaky computer network adapter.

Like I say.. do not under estimate the importance APSU when it comes to fault analysis

And for curtsy with phone only.... 40% of ftth installs require phone only, Will be interesting to see how this turns out in the industry with the rollouts happening now and what comes from UFB, short answer is I believe no rapid change for a single APSU , Will see how this side works though in the next few days so you can demo it at ... You know where :)

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#368886 17-Aug-2010 20:17

Maverick

That old chestnut !!

OK the idea that the Telco has control over your home power supply is out of date. Originally justification for this position was to protect the copper cable network and technicians from electrical damage.

Now with FTTH that’s completely different... the only issue now is the protection of the active communications devices (RGW/ONT) not the entire underground cable or human lives.

CFH is going to follow NBNco's lead and force LFC's to not regulate the customers home power supply rather such devices will be self certified to comply like any other appliance. Essentially you plug it in and it brakes then its your problem.

ALARMNZ

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#368892 17-Aug-2010 20:27

User Reported (3) see under my profile. as of today 20:27 18/8/2010

If someone has a problem with the information that is being presented here please join in and say what you want to say right here , ( do not hide behind a report button) I think there may be a mis-understanding about what an APSU is ...

It's a generic term to describe a whole class of Broadband Interruptible Power Supply used by more than one company in the Fire/Security industry.

This is not an advert dumb A**

freitasm

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#368904 17-Aug-2010 20:53

ALARMNZ: User Reported (3) see under my profile. as of today 20:27 18/8/2010

If someone has a problem with the information that is being presented here please join in and say what you want to say right here , ( do not hide behind a report button) I think there may be a mis-understanding about what an APSU is ...

It's a generic term to describe a whole class of Broadband Interruptible Power Supply used by more than one company in the Fire/Security industry.

ALARMNZ, only you and moderators see that "User Reported" sign. Other users don't see it. Also it doesn't mean you have been reported because of this thread, it's the total of times someone reported your posts - and could be on any other discussion.

ALARMNZ:
This is not an advert dumb A**

You are making assumptions about WHY people reported your posts. Your name calling is way out of line.

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#368917 17-Aug-2010 21:13

Well that means I'm the Dumb A** eh !

( does not count cause I used it on myself )

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#368927 17-Aug-2010 21:26

Onward and Forward !!

Here is an interesting Link about how the NBNCo is getting on with the Alarm industry in Australia and the challenges there.

http://www.asial.com.au/Assets/1910/1/AprMaypg20_24.pdf

ASIAL is the official industry organisation and is run by old folks who should have retired years ago. Might give you insight into the scale of the Alarm industry ( much bigger than you think)

Remember almost every new FTTH has an Alarm fitted from day one.

The New Zealand Security industry supported by the insurance council adheres to AS:2201 so like I have said previously the Telco's are moving into unchartered territory, especially when they want to play with FIRE, SECURITY and MEDICAL systems and their ability to communicate reliably.

I suggest when it comes to backup power systems they keep a safe distance.

maverick

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#369365 18-Aug-2010 15:20

ALARMNZ: Maverick

CFH is going to follow NBNco's lead and force LFC's to not regulate the customers home power supply rather such devices will be self certified to comply like any other appliance. Essentially you plug it in and it brakes then its your problem.

Hmm intersting ... the draft specs are out
http://www.tcf.org.nz/news/a8ef25ef-2c10-4621-9b3d-05cc254489eb.html

No mention of forcing LFC's power requirements at custy premises , maybe they are going to leave it to the TCF working party groups ?, The draft mentions power requirments for Co Lo but the draft does not cover any requirment around the end users.... the fun begins for us all

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#370548 21-Aug-2010 01:09

Maverick

Firstly while I am sure that the CFH will preserve the right of the consumer to control power on their own site. I am equally sure that the same consumer will have the right to delegate that to any 3rd party including the Telco or ISP. What mechanism is used to enforce this policy will obviously be either legislation or by ministry policy embedded into the LFC operational guidlines.

I do and have understood your requirement to have a SLA around the backup power supply, but please do not misconstrue hardware supply ambitions as the motive for my retort, its simply that when "any one" Telco/ISP ( there may be others) wants to control battery supply for a communication gateway they are going beyond an except able demarcation point not only for me but many site contractors as well.

While I observe the ISP/Telco's within the TCF controlling the draft internal home wiring code today ( with respect most of the individuals on this TCF committee have never wired a house ), I am also sure that common sense will prevail and your group will seek external guidance. As an ISP you look towards the network Telco to resolve the backup power issue "because its easy". I am absolutely 100% certain no matter what the TCF home wiring committee writes into a home wiring specification if it does not pass the common sense test and meet the local government regulations then it will fail.

I did mention to you that there were circumstances already where the consumer is required by a number of local and government regulations to provide backup power to communications gateways and there cannot be an absence of a designated 24/7 battery service agent available for callout. These sites are where a NZS:4512 FIRE alarm or sprinkler is fitted and are connected to the brigade. In this scenario unless the Telco/ISP has attained accreditation as an AFASP by the NZ Fire Commission then they are forbidden to maintain communications batteries at customers premises or at least such work is required to be overseen by the NZ Fire service AFASP ( BTW ALARMNZ is an accredited AFASP)

You talk about responsibly and liability well when in the scenario of a rest home/motel where the Telco supplied battery fails,.... a fire breaks out and residents die because the Fire service were not notified because of the outage...who is responsible for that ?

I strongly suggest that ISP/Telcos put aside previous held thoughts about the battery for a brief moment and step into the shoes of the consumer who will want to control his/her own domain and affairs. Have you considered that a consumer may want multiple internet service providers simultaneously or perhaps that the consumer will want 48 hours of battery life or no battery at all. Some customers enjoy privacy within the home and do not like being told to open up their house because the Telco man wants to test/replace your battery. I could rattle of a hundred and one reasons why this plan of the Telcos/ISP to supply and control the home battery will never work? ( despite trying to manipulate a new home wiring standard)

This is about understanding demarcation point and where that border starts and stops. The 111 emergency phone angle and the TSO (Telecom service obligations) around phone service is not a consideration in this arena as the government are going to relax that due to the high level of mobile devices in play ( more mobiles now than landlines)

It would be helpful if the Telcos/ISPs put the "power" issues back into the hands of the consumer where it belongs, before they get ripped to shreds by the Green media and the electrical industry. The Whole FTTH project has enough problems without the TCF getting into a scrap that it will lose in the end anyway?.take my advice keep the install cost down leave the site power responsibility to the site owner.

If that up coming draft TCF wiring standard contains a requirement to include a mandatory Telco supplied power supply I can absolutely guarantee the industry will engage the FIRE commission and local councils into this debate and it will sink into red tape for years. What you do not "see" here is that the Telco/ISP's are crossing the demarcation line and as in any situation if you push over the line then you need to expect heavy resistance.

Take my advice step back before its too late, once again without repeating myself endlessly... place this power responsibility into the hands of the consumer where it belongs.

BTW you owe me an ISP sticker for the above effort! Please post for demo board photo

ALARMNZ

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#372402 24-Aug-2010 22:30

24.6. Power supply

24.6.1 Services delivered to End Users using technologies other than the PSTN may rely on a power source being available at all times to sustain the delivery of voice services, and other solutions dependant on voice services, such as monitored and medical alarms. Therefore it is recommended that an Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS) device with surge protection is installed to provide power backup during power outages, and ensure service continuity for telephones, alarm systems and other home mission critical services. A UPS operates like a backup battery and typically lasts for one or two hours. The Service Provider is the first point of contact for information on UPS installations, as it must comply with the overall solution provided.

source:TCF Premises Wiring Code of Practice Page 14-15 of 66 Aug 2010

http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/dc07abcd-21f8-4288-b55b-6f861bdd4d02.html

So here it is ....the TCF says that a UPS is the answer and that the ISP should be the first point of contact.

if you want to make a submission regarding consumers freedom to use what ever conforming power source c
ontact TCF work stream coordinator on clare.dobson@tcf.org.nz , with any proposed changes to the Code

ALARMNZ

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#373155 26-Aug-2010 15:29

"CHORUS forgets about wireless and wastes time with old copper cables"

Telecom CHORUS intends to deploy 4000 devices per month as described in the article below

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/4025300/Kiwi-device-to-make-broadband-50X-faster

They have simply failed to consider conventional wireless solutions ..always thinking about cable, relying on a ill-conceived notion that amplification or boosting broadband signals over existing home old telephone cables as the best to improve household Broadband speeds up and around 10Mb per second, as the alternative option against total rewiring.

In comparison more widely excepted methodologies such as 802.11g wireless providing 24- 54Mbps and the better portability such wifi devices offer absolutely renders the CHORUS solution dead in the water.

In the following recent article CHORUS fails to mention wifi as an option to improve broadband speeds is proof they are not thinking wireless at all.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/connect/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501833&objectid=10650104

You will notice they do not talk about Wifi?
I know my good friends at CHORUS will hate me for this but...here comes the next headline

CHORUS stuck in Copper AGE !!

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sbiddle

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#373176 26-Aug-2010 15:59

WiFi is not a replacement for copper cables. End of story.

ALARMNZ

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#373186 26-Aug-2010 16:13

Sbiddle

VDSL and SHDSL are good copper line broadband boosters, but hardly suitable in and around the home. If CAT5/6 cabling is not present in the house then surely wifi is the cheapest and easiest solution, are you saying that there is a better higher performance option available?..please lengthen your short story as it kind of ended too quickly.

kyhwana2

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#373191 26-Aug-2010 16:18

ALARMNZ: Sbiddle

VDSL and SHDSL are good copper line broadband boosters, but hardly suitable in and around the home. If CAT5/6 cabling is not present in the house then surely wifi is the cheapest and easiest solution, are you saying that there is a better higher performance option available?..please lengthen your short story as it kind of ended too quickly.

Wifi is fine as long as you're in the same room and all your gear is 2.4 and/or 5ghz 802.11n.
However, transferring large amounts of data around a LAN over wifi, especially to different places in a house is slow, even on n. (Compared to gige)

You'll probably need 2 AP's if you have a large house or a house with walls that block wifi RF. (Then you have to get cable to where the AP's are placed.)
Sure, you can stick a single AP wherever all the DSL/networking gear is, but will that reach all the way to your furthermost room and still get decent speed?

Also 2.4ghz gear is subject to quite a lot of interference..

Zeon

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#373197 26-Aug-2010 16:21

TBH a proper 100mbps wired network is far preferred over wifi. Wifi has too many variables and wouldn't be suitable for things like streaming sky etc. due to bandwidth contention etc.

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