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StNick

88 posts

Master Geek


#278508 20-Oct-2020 12:11
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I've decided to make a dedicated thread for this as the discussion about the issue over in the years-old "Sky Sport Now - 2019 changes" thread has really gotten lost in the noise (and dredged up numerous times throughout the 37 page history).  It is my hope that someone technical from Sky can finally comment on this issue to shed some light.

 

Disclaimer: This is only a theory of mine which I have derived from my own experiences using both services over the course of about a year.  The devices I have used to come to the conclusions that I have include Chromecast, Chromecast Ultra, Samsung TV, Sony Android TV, Google Chrome, OnePlus 6 and Samsung Galaxy S10.  From other comments in the "Sky Sport Now - 2019 changes" thread, it would seem that the best possible experience can be had with Apple TV; a device I have NOT tried.  However, for reasons I will explain, I do not believe that these issues can possibly be device specific and I am more inclined to attribute the positive experience from Apple TV users to the superior app, and most likely the lack of an alternative service to directly compare against at any given point (such as Sky Go or Kayo Sports).  Put another way, I have no doubt that there are many happy Sky Sport Now users who are blissfully unaware that they could be getting an even better quality stream from Sky's own "Sky Go" app.   Furthermore, I must state that I am no longer a subscriber of either of these services so I cannot say whether things have improved or not.  Certainly, given the recent complaints from existing users it would appear that nothing has changed.

 

The issue
Sky Sport Now streams appear to have a lower frame-rate than their Sky Go equivalents.

 

The theory
Like any good streaming service, both Sky Sport Now and Sky Go offer multiple streams for the same broadcast of varying bitrate and quality to cater for all internet speeds, as well as maximum device compatibility.  This means that any specific device (for example Apple TV) might favour the highest quality stream whilst another device (for example an Android phone) might only max out at a lower bitrate stream.  As conditions change, the video player might switch to a lower or higher quality stream dynamically during playback, so it is not always obvious which quality you are currently watching.  However, it is possible to interrogate the video stream and retrieve ALL the possible quality options, and then manually force playback at that quality.  The easiest way to do this is to use Kodi, and a third party addon for SSN and Sky Go respectively.  Before playback begins, it first queries the stream and finds out which qualities are available (regardless of device) and then asks which one specifically you want to watch.   In both cases, we can see that SSN and Sky Go both offer maximum quality streams in the region of 8mbps, with a 1080p resolution at 50fps.  Again, whether you can actually watch at this maximum quality will depend on your device and your own internet speed, but the streams are there.

 

So what's the problem?  Both are 1080p50, right?  Well, not exactly.  1080p50 in this case describes (in part) how the video was encoded.  This doesn't guarantee that the original source video was 50fps to begin with.  It also doesn't guarantee that the source hasn't been incorrectly encoded.  I could record a video at 720p 10fps, and then stream it online at 4k 60fps if I so wished.  Anyone consuming the stream would see 4k60 in their player and be very disappointed with the result.  This, in essence is what appears to be happening with Sky Sport Now; when compared with the same channel / event on Sky Go at the same resolution, Sky Sport Now consistently has a lower frame rate.

 

Surely the source material from Sky should be identical?  Well, these two services use entirely different stream providers behind the scenes.  Sky Sport Now is an evolution of their old Fanpass service, whilst I believe Sky Go is a newer product (I stand to be corrected on this though).  My best guess is that the backend streaming provider Sky is using for SSN is butchering the encode.  Whether Sky is aware of this remains to be seen as they have declined to comment thus far.

 

The best I can do is try and prove my theory.  To that end, I created the video you see below.  Manually select the highest quality you can, and make sure it is one of the 60 fps options.  What you are seeing here is both SSN (left) and Sky Go (right), side-by-side.  This was a live broadcast with both streams running next to each other in Kodi on my desktop.  In both cases, you are seeing the maximum quality stream available (~8mbps, 1080p and a reported 50 fps).  You should quite easily be able to tell the difference in the framerate by watching the tennis ball and the players.  If you change playback speed to 0.25x, the difference is even clearer.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF2Ls4O20Po

 

One final disclaimer from me.  I think Sky Sport Now is a good service; I want to love it and I have subscribed on-and-off on three separate occasions since it was launched in an attempt to love it.  But having used Sky Go and Kayo Sports (Australia's equivalent offering), I just cannot commit.  On a large TV, it is simply not pleasant watching the sports I do with SSN and it is my genuine hope that this thread can raise some awareness so that Sky fixes it.


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Quinny
885 posts

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  #2588384 20-Oct-2020 14:15
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I followed that big thread and have (paid) access to both Go and Now. Our house last weekend (Bathurst) had both running on Vodafone fibre/Huawei Mesh. The Go coverage was less laggy and never stuttered but the Now did have problems at times. For us, we can confirm the above for the weekend just gone (as well as in the past with Go less issues than Now). I did have issues with Go running from Android coming up technical error but if I started from the ipad started fine.  




wratterus
1687 posts

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  #2588402 20-Oct-2020 14:37
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Very well said, I agree completely.  I used SkyGo over the weekend for Bathurst and the rugby and it was amazing. SSN is painful to watch in comparison. 


  #2588407 20-Oct-2020 14:48
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I ditched Sky satellite about 2 years ago. I tried what was Fanpass at the time for about 3 months before giving up on them ever fixing the frame rate issue. I switched to Kayo and have been happy ever since but that's not the point of this post.

 

 

 

Your example video is exactly what I saw when using Fanpass/SSN. Its clear that somewhere along the chain of service providers the original content is being butchered and then placed inside a 1080p/50 container which is what your media player of choice will report.

 

For how to fix the issue, firstly Sky need to accept and communicate that there is an issue. When or if they will do that is anyone's guess. You could vote with your feet?




JPNZ
1542 posts

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  #2589430 20-Oct-2020 16:33
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Even watching that video towards the end when you pause on the (I think) coach's face and hair you can see more detail on the skygo side.

 

 

 

I'll try find some tennis or golf or similar fast ball movement sports and see if I can see any artifacts on SSN on my ATV.





Panasonic 65GZ1000, Onkyo RZ730, Atmos 5.1.2, AppleTV 4K, Nest Mini's, PS5, PS3, MacbookPro, iPad Pro, Apple watch SE2, iPhone 15+


  #2589456 20-Oct-2020 17:43
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It doesn't have to be fast moving sports. You can see it watching golf, especially putting. As the camera scans and zoom as the ball rolls towards the hole you can see the ball jumping from one frame to the next.


Breezzee
38 posts

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  #2589587 20-Oct-2020 21:52
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wratterus:

 

Very well said, I agree completely.  I used SkyGo over the weekend for Bathurst and the rugby and it was amazing. SSN is painful to watch in comparison. 

 

 

 

 

Plus 1

 

 

 

My SkyGo is about to run out so will be stuck with SSN.

 

Though there is one big advantage running SSN through Kodi, that I won’t go into on here thou. (PM if you like for the details)


tdgeek
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  #2589639 21-Oct-2020 08:31
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Senecio:

 

It doesn't have to be fast moving sports. You can see it watching golf, especially putting. As the camera scans and zoom as the ball rolls towards the hole you can see the ball jumping from one frame to the next.

 

 

Not sure if its related technically, but golf on Satellite is very very good. On some 30 minute highlights, its like you described, the ball flitters through the air or green. Clearly the original footage is not the issue, even satellite they seem to be downgrading some content. Satellite replays or live is fine

 

Also, the issues of SSN are legendary, but recently there seems to be some here that say its good now


 
 
 

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JPNZ
1542 posts

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  #2589667 21-Oct-2020 09:43
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Senecio:

 

It doesn't have to be fast moving sports. You can see it watching golf, especially putting. As the camera scans and zoom as the ball rolls towards the hole you can see the ball jumping from one frame to the next.

 

 

Funny you say that as I watched about 20 mins of PGA golf last night on SSN. I would say its not quite as good as satellite (I haven't had this for over a year but used to have it for around 8-9 years) but it definitely wasn't as bad as you describe. There was no judder on panning greens and putting. No artifacts of the ball in flight (over what normally occurs even in real time with an object moving so fast) there was about 1-2 seconds of blockiness when zooming into the grass I think when it cannot differentiate between so much green and details.

 

Overall though I'd honestly give it to about 90% of full satellite quality, objective too as I don't have back to back or screen to screen testing. Its far from terrible though and easily watchable.

 

I might try find some golf again and record it with my phone and upload to YT if anyone cares??





Panasonic 65GZ1000, Onkyo RZ730, Atmos 5.1.2, AppleTV 4K, Nest Mini's, PS5, PS3, MacbookPro, iPad Pro, Apple watch SE2, iPhone 15+


StNick

88 posts

Master Geek


  #2589686 21-Oct-2020 10:51
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I wouldn't mind seeing that, thanks.  But not sure how well the quality would translate to the video on the phone.  Be sure to use a 60fps format, otherwise there is definitely no point doing it.

 

 

 

Slight update to my original post - Sky Sport Now uses "Endeavor Streaming" behind the scenes.   These guys also stream content for the NBA, NFL, EPL and the UFC (including 4k).  So I think it is safe to say that the platform is certainly capable of providing a better quality stream than the one we're getting.  Perhaps it is just Sky Sport Now's implementation that is to blame - which is positive news because that means it is fixable.


JPNZ
1542 posts

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  #2589694 21-Oct-2020 11:34
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Cool, there is european tour on tonight from St Andrews so I'll take a few minutes at 1080/60 on my iphone and see how it comes out. I'm out for dinner so will upload to YT tomorrow sometime





Panasonic 65GZ1000, Onkyo RZ730, Atmos 5.1.2, AppleTV 4K, Nest Mini's, PS5, PS3, MacbookPro, iPad Pro, Apple watch SE2, iPhone 15+


JPNZ
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  #2590378 22-Oct-2020 19:53
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As promised some golf from tonight. It’s not my best camera work but looks pretty good imho.

Recorded on iPhone @ 1080/60 please select 1080 HD on YT

https://youtu.be/joI3Ltvw3cg




Panasonic 65GZ1000, Onkyo RZ730, Atmos 5.1.2, AppleTV 4K, Nest Mini's, PS5, PS3, MacbookPro, iPad Pro, Apple watch SE2, iPhone 15+


JPNZ
1542 posts

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  #2590381 22-Oct-2020 19:57
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After watching that on my laptop, YT has degraded PQ a little (as usual) but its not far off what shown on my iPhone.





Panasonic 65GZ1000, Onkyo RZ730, Atmos 5.1.2, AppleTV 4K, Nest Mini's, PS5, PS3, MacbookPro, iPad Pro, Apple watch SE2, iPhone 15+


JarrodM
969 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2590406 22-Oct-2020 20:11
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I definitely think the issue is when the stream heads offshore to be encoded by endeavour (formerly neulion) rugbypass uses them too (as did premier league pass back in the day, who had similar issues).

From my understanding skygo is in-house, hence why it was crap for so long, but this obviously means the content never leaves them and they control it all. I can only hypothesise that the issue is outside of sky’s direct control.

StNick

88 posts

Master Geek


  #2590657 23-Oct-2020 10:52
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JPNZ: As promised some golf from tonight. It’s not my best camera work but looks pretty good imho.

Recorded on iPhone @ 1080/60 please select 1080 HD on YT

 

 

 

Hmmm, very difficult to judge from this I feel; but the framerate looks alright.  However, I can see pretty obvious interlacing between frames.  This is actually something I recall seeing with Golf streams specifically when I was a SSN subscriber comparing against Sky Go.  To be honest, this is an entirely different discussion though.

 

 

 


JPNZ
1542 posts

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  #2590683 23-Oct-2020 11:28
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Agree 100 percent StNick. It’s very hard without a direct source, there were times there where you can see my phone refocus and it doesn’t show a true picture. Yes to some interlacing issues on sharp edges I noticed a lot. It actually annoys me more than the frame rates to be honest.

Either way, I’ve decided to order the annual for $299 as I watched some rugby and league replays last night and it looked good.





Panasonic 65GZ1000, Onkyo RZ730, Atmos 5.1.2, AppleTV 4K, Nest Mini's, PS5, PS3, MacbookPro, iPad Pro, Apple watch SE2, iPhone 15+


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