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90 posts

Master Geek
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Topic # 93786 29-Nov-2011 14:11
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Hi Guys,

Looking to build new house due to recent CHCH events.  As part of the build i would like to try and put in some structured cabling.  My budget isnt massive so i will try and do most of the work myself, should be able to access the house during framing stage to drill holes, run cables etc..  Have some time up my sleeve to prepare but figuredi would post here and get some advice.


the goals of the project are to allow

1. network and telephone in all bed rooms ( pretty standard ), will generally be using wifi modem/router but would like LAN aswell.
2. Sky installation, ideally distributed around the main rooms in the house, looking at cat5 and HDMI distribution, but wondering what other options, what is the most cost effective etc.. 
3. Accounting for Home Audio, this is really just in teh lounge, i have previously wired up existing house with in wall cabling and banana sockets etc..

Biggest issue really is Sky Tv, and getting a quality picture around the house, Lounge, Living, Master Bedroom etc, ideally with HDMI.  Would be NICE but not essentially to have IR so i can control sky in bed room and decoder else where.  Just want advice on how i should go about this, even if its just laying the cables not and doing the hook up later, what is the min i need for now, 

Any advice, of links to existing topics would be helpful :)


Thanks  


               

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  Reply # 551466 29-Nov-2011 14:16
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I would suggest for the extra cost that for running HDMI you just run a heap of cat5e to each socket/room (like maybe 4 cables per socket). You can run HDMI over 2 pairs of cat5e for up to 100m and maybe in 10 years time when HDMI is replaced by some other acronym it will be a similar situation.








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Master Geek
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  Reply # 551468 29-Nov-2011 14:20
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Yup i figure lots of cat5e, but also wondering about rg6, shouldit be quad or duo, and then once i have cables, what hardware do i need to do this. Also want to make sure that say in teh lounge or lving that i have a couple of options to put the main sky box, incase the layout of the room we have in a floor plan doesnt work and we have to shift the tv location when we get into the room :)

Banana?
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  Reply # 551469 29-Nov-2011 14:22
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Run CAT6 if you can. Not much difference now, but in the future having CAT6 in the walls may be quite beneficial.

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  Reply # 551470 29-Nov-2011 14:25
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You can also run HDMI on a single CAT6 now but not cheap for the transmitter & receiver at about $350-$400 for the pair.






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Master Geek
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  Reply # 551485 29-Nov-2011 14:57
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Ouch35 for the transmitter, are the cat5e baluns cheaper? So this is why i have posted here :) need to know a cost effective way of doing it, that wont stop be for the future :)

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 551486 29-Nov-2011 14:57
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Just a note, try to get hold of Electrical Code of Practice (ECP) documentation, or at least seek advice from a registered electrician regarding the location and size of holes and cable runs within the house framing. The last thing you will need is to fail inspections due to non conformance regarding the NZ Building Code.




Michael Skyrme - Instrumentation & Controls

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  Reply # 551630 29-Nov-2011 22:33
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MikeSkyrme: Just a note, try to get hold of Electrical Code of Practice (ECP) documentation, or at least seek advice from a registered electrician regarding the location and size of holes and cable runs within the house framing. The last thing you will need is to fail inspections due to non conformance regarding the NZ Building Code.


LOL! There are only guidelines for comms cabling. It isnt part of the electrical code of conduct. As for distributing HDMI cat5e/cat6 is the way to go. I have cat 6 through my place (i work for a cabling firm so its free for me) and used to use my old 'hdmi over cat5' extenders. They needed two cables. I now have a sweet pair of extenders that send hdmi & ir & acts as a switch. The boss only charged me $150 odd but from previous convo's on here I believe he didnt realise there was two ends so yah for me i guess lol. I only use the extender to get it to the bedroom. In the lounge I have a 5m hdmi from tv (up on wall) down to entertainment unit and then a 10m lead goes to the back of the lounge for laptops etc. I bought the cables off trademe for under $20 each!

In regards to hole sizes..... 25mm is my go to drill bit for pre-wires.

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  Reply # 551672 30-Nov-2011 08:34
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chevrolux:
MikeSkyrme: Just a note, try to get hold of Electrical Code of Practice (ECP) documentation, or at least seek advice from a registered electrician regarding the location and size of holes and cable runs within the house framing. The last thing you will need is to fail inspections due to non conformance regarding the NZ Building Code.


LOL! There are only guidelines for comms cabling. It isnt part of the electrical code of conduct.


I think the above is valid with regards to a new comer gouging the guts out of 4x2 studs to lay cables.

The poster is not saying structured cabling is in there, just the OP might want to get an idea of how to drill holes and how much is too much to take out etc. 



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  Reply # 551684 30-Nov-2011 08:45
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Jaxson: I think the above is valid with regards to a new comer gouging the guts out of 4x2 studs to lay cables.

The poster is not saying structured cabling is in there, just the OP might want to get an idea of how to drill holes and how much is too much to take out etc. 


Will try and find out some details on the dwang drilling as i think that will be my first approach

Looking through other posts i can see the following recommendations

Aerial : 3 x RG6 for UHF/Sky/Freeview.All locations :    

4 x Cat5e (2 for Network/phone/IR and 2 For HDMI )
1 RG6 ( 1 for TV ) 

Main TV Location
  
4x RG6 ( 2 for Sky, 1 for TV, 1 for Return )
4x Cat5e ( 2 for HDMI, 2 for Network/phone/IR)


Also where the AMP is located i will need to allow for Speaker Cabling, RG59 is used for SUB?  Speak Cables for Speakers obviously :)  

So is that what im looking at realistically?

I have seen some people say dont just drill the holes but put in conduit, this helps if its an external wall with Batts in it i assume?  But what type of coduit, and and i use conduit wont it make the holes smaller to get cables down, Sorry this is the part i dont have any exp with :)

Can anyone help with a list of the Hardware Parts i might need at the Main Hub location?     Its a new house and as standard they will put some cabling in and i think and inwall box, should i just upgrade whatever they use to a larger version or should i avoid inwall and stick a box somewhere?  Also should my wifi router/adsl sit inside that box, i assume the wifi side might be an issue if the box is a long way from the rooms that need wifi :)


Thanks for the help 

        

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  Reply # 551687 30-Nov-2011 08:48
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mrhaboobi: Yup i figure lots of cat5e, but also wondering about rg6, shouldit be quad or duo,


What suburb are you building in? If you are in a TelstraClear Inhome (cable) area, and think you might use it, then get quad, otherwise if you are just distributing satellite or terrestrial then duo will be fine



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  Reply # 551690 30-Nov-2011 08:50
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nickb800:
mrhaboobi: Yup i figure lots of cat5e, but also wondering about rg6, shouldit be quad or duo,


What suburb are you building in? If you are in a TelstraClear Inhome (cable) area, and think you might use it, then get quad, otherwise if you are just distributing satellite or terrestrial then duo will be fine


At this point it will be prebbleton, and i dont believe telstra is there yet, so i might not need it now.  i see the standards now suggest tripple shield..  was just trying to cover the future i guess
 

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 551702 30-Nov-2011 09:20
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You can never have to many cables. If you have the chance to when building its the best time to future proof the home. Dont forget the network port above the fridge for the wireless access point :)



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 551715 30-Nov-2011 10:16
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Another question, if using cat6 should i use stranded or solid core. And what im a little unsure about if how many stands of a cable each things needs right now as i understand it

HDMI needs 2 full cat5 cables
but i dont know how many Network, IR and Phone Need. Phone seems to be one twisted pair for each line, so that cable can be shared?

Anyone got pointers on this..

And is the benefit of cat6 just that is has faster potential speed, it doesnt reduce the number of cables i assume.

Thanks

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  Reply # 551750 30-Nov-2011 11:25
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Hi Greg, I was going to put all my responses in reply to the PM but thought it would be of benefit to others to reply to a few issues here first.

Firstly, do not install any stranded cables as permanent structured cabling in buildings, only ever use solid. Stranded is used for patch and fly leads, never in structure cabling.

For most folk cat5e is more than they will ever need, however the cost of cat6 is only 25-50% more so potentially worth consideration. However in a domestic situation where runs never exceed 25-30m the benefits of cat6 over cat5e are minor. Both do GigE and are fully rated to do so, however in runs upto 37m cat6 will do 10GigE, but the value of such speeds outside of Telco and data centre applications is a moot point.

I personally would limit the number of locations that you take HDMI to via cat5/6 cabling, and where possible if under 20m then use standard HDMI cables. The issues/cost associated with splitting and distributing HDMI often make folk give up. Its worth doing for maybe a master bedroom and family room in addition to the primary location, but in general its not worth the hassle beyond that. Personally I am pinning my hopes on the HDBaseT standard to take over for this type of distribution as personally HDMI is a lame interconnect.

As for RG6 to use, if you are in a TCL area then use tri-sheild, if not then use duobond. TCL have no intention of increasing their network now that the UFB is happening, so if its not a TCL area now then it never will be. Duo bond is all that is required, and even if you do put trishield in you must use gel flooded RG6 for any runs to the outside/roof, and trishield flooded is not common, so just use the more common duo.

As for the number of cat5/6 runs to put in, well you can never have too many, but you also dont want to turn a domestic house into a commercial office space. I recommend (and not including the runs for HDMI) 2runs to each bedroom, a run to each wall mounted TV (ie behind it along with a GPO and RG6). Any location where AV hear will be placed, put in a minimum 2 maybe 3. For offices/study's I like to put minimum of 4 in sometimes 6, in most typical situations put data outlets in pairs, so in the study put in two or three faceplates, so there are outlets where the desk will be and maybe a couple where a network printer or NAS will go.

As for TV outlets. always run a RG6 to behind any wall mounted TVs, and where the Skybox/DVD etc goes run a minimum or 2xRG6 although I typcially run 3xRG6 to the main Skybox location, this allows for UHF antenna, SatLband, and a return UHF for house distribution. It also means a future 2nd SatLBand can be allowed for. Dont forget a couple of HDMI from any AV gear sited below wall mounted TVs.

In bedrooms again a uphigh RG6 behind a wall mounted along with the cat5/6 and GPO and purhaps one below if a dedicated Skybox is ever expected to be used in those rooms.

Hope that helps someway toward answering your questions.

Edit, and one final thing, think about WiFi coverage, therefore a cat5/6 run (plus power) to the top of the pantry or hidden in the cupboard above the fridge to cover the main living space, and one in a hall closet at the other end of the house, again up high to see over all the furniture and optimise coverage.


Cheers
Cyril



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Master Geek
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  Reply # 551770 30-Nov-2011 12:18
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Hi Cyril thanks for your response and sorry for my large reply

 
cyril7: Firstly, do not install any stranded cables as permanent structured cabling in buildings, only ever use solid. Stranded is used for patch and fly leads, never in structure cabling.



Ok thanks thats good to know :) better check that 305M roll of cat5 i have in the garage ;)
      
cyril7:
For most folk cat5e is more than they will ever need, however the cost of cat6 is only 25-50% more so potentially worth consideration. 

  
Ok so cat6 isnt a huge benefit currently are we seeing that its going to be the norm at some point or cat5 will do the job for the next 10 years or so?

cyril7: 
I personally would limit the number of locations that you take HDMI to via cat5/6 cabling, and where possible if under 20m then use standard HDMI cables.



Ok so assuming i would like to have HDMI across 4 tvs ( master Bed, Lounge, Living/kitchen/study ) you think its best that i run 4 HDMI cables possibly the longest being 25M to 4 fixed points, this seems a little limiting if for some reason i decided to shift the position of the tvs, id need to run more HDMI cables in the wall to the "other" points just incase, and what happens if for some reason the HDMI spec changes from 1.2 -> 1.3 -> 1.4 -> whatever and HDMI i have isnt compatible?  I understand your point, with splitting and distribution costs, but assuming i just want to future proof and maybe not connect everything should i allow 2 cat5 cables at every point for HDMI output.   I'll worry about how to get the HDMI to those points at a later date :)


cyril7:
As for RG6 to use, if you are in a TCL area then use tri-sheild, if not then use duobond. TCL have no intention of increasing their network now that the UFB is happening, so if its not a TCL area now then it never will be.


Ok that is good to know, then duobond will be fine for me.  

cyril7: As for the number of cat5/6 runs to put in, well you can never have too many, but you also dont want to turn a domestic house into a commercial office space. I recommend (and not including the runs for HDMI) 2 runs to each bedroom, a run to each wall mounted TV (ie behind it along with a GPO and RG6). Any location where AV hear will be placed, put in a minimum 2 maybe 3. For offices/study's I like to put minimum of 4 in sometimes 6, in most typical situations put data outlets in pairs, so in the study put in two or three faceplates, so there are outlets where the desk will be and maybe a couple where a network printer or NAS will go. 
 
As for TV outlets. always run a RG6 to behind any wall mounted TVs, and where the Skybox/DVD etc goes run a minimum or 2xRG6 although I typcially run 3xRG6 to the main Skybox location, this allows for UHF antenna, SatLband, and a return UHF for house distribution. It also means a future 2nd SatLBand can be allowed for. Dont forget a couple of HDMI from any AV gear sited below wall mounted TVs.

In bedrooms again a uphigh RG6 behind a wall mounted along with the cat5/6 and GPO and purhaps one below if a dedicated Skybox is ever expected to be used in those rooms.

Hope that helps someway toward answering your questions.

Edit, and one final thing, think about WiFi coverage, therefore a cat5/6 run (plus power) to the top of the pantry or hidden in the cupboard above the fridge to cover the main living space, and one in a hall closet at the other end of the house, again up high to see over all the furniture and optimise coverage.


Cheers
Cyril



Ok so this last part got my head spinning a bit.

So basically you are saying.  for each spot i want to potentially put a TV or Phone or Network run the following.

Master BedRoom
==========

1 set of the following where the TV would go ( assuming we wall mount and dont need multiple tv spots )
 
4 Cat5 ( 2 for Network and phone , and 2 for HDMI )
3 RG6 for Tv Connection ( assuming second sky box possible).      

And and alternative spot incase we want phone next to bed etc  
2x Cat5 ( 2 for Network and phone )


Other bedrooms ( assuming one tv spot , but if more than one possible spot add duplicate set ups )
===========

4 Cat5 ( 2 for Network and phone , and 2 for HDMI )
1 RG6 for Tv Connection ( assuming no sky box needed ).     

 
Study
==========

Maing Point 
4 Cat5 ( 2 for Network and phone , and 2 for HDMI )
1 RG6 for Tv Connection ( assuming no sky box needed ).    

Secondary Network point

2 Cat5 ( 2 for Network and phone)   
  

Living Room/Kitchen    
===============

Main TV point 
4 Cat5 ( 2 for Network and phone , and 2 for HDMI ) 
3 RG6 for Tv Connection ( assuming second sky box possible).          
 
Phone Connection Points /network in kitchen Area
==============================
2 Cat5    ( under kitchen bench type thing )

Lounge
======  
Wherever the gear goes i need this lot ( maybe 2 spots to give flexibility on layout
   
4 Cat5 ( 2 for Network and phone , and 2 for HDMI ) 
4 RG6 for Tv Connection ( assuming sky box needs 2, UHF needs 1 and a return ).         

Alternative Wifi Points ( most likley 2 )
===============
1 Cat5
1 Power 
    

would that be a suitable layout?  I know i havent mentioned HDMI cables in the above, will need some in a spot or two to link low down gear with high up gear seperate by a meter or so.  Do you normally put some form of channel or conduit in teh walls for this to slide in and out easy?

Also stupid question what is GPO?

Assuming i have a house floor plan soon, is this something i can show you to get some layout ideas, i know that service might cost me, but it would be good to get it correct :)  so i can show whoever does the work what i want and its been designed correctly.


Thanks Alot for your help.      

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