Emergency water tanks - self replenishing?

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#1674883 21-Nov-2016 11:27

mdf:

You're way more disciplined than me. Knowing myself, there's no way I would actually get around to changing the water every six months. I've got the advantage that the section of roof I'd want to tap into seems really clean. Salt might be a bit of an issue (we're coastal) but I'm aiming to deal with that via the diverter.

Stick a note that ways change the water on the battery of you smoke alarms, when you come round to changing them , do the water,...

Or if you have a manual clock you have to manually alter for daylight savings, simply stick a post it on the back to tell you to do the water..

RunningMan

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#1674888 21-Nov-2016 11:31

timmmay:I have taps in my kitchen, bathroom, and laundry. They're how I get hot water. The cylinder is in the ceiling, I don't know if there's any direct or local access to the water - I just use a tap in the house.

Those taps won't work if there isn't a source of water pressure to push the water out - either mains pressure or another header tank. The outlet from a HWC is at the top, gravity alone can't get the water out unless it comes out the bottom of the tank, hence the need for a drain valve at the bottom on the cold inlet to get water out when the external water pressure is zero.

jonathan18

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#1674889 21-Nov-2016 11:37

timmmay:

Let us know what you find, I might buy a couple more. Not sure a drinking water hose is essential, it just tastes a little better, but the barrel will taste like plastic and the water will need to be treated anyway.

Sure thing - will post back here when he gets back to me.

Yeah, I think I can cope with plastic-tasting water, given that if I'm having to drink it that'll probably be the least of my worries!

So does the water need to be treated prior to drinking? The Getthru site doesn't mention this - just the requirement to add bleach at the time of filling the containers. What's the best source of purification tablets, if they are required?

timmmay

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#1674890 21-Nov-2016 11:41

RunningMan:

timmmay:I have taps in my kitchen, bathroom, and laundry. They're how I get hot water. The cylinder is in the ceiling, I don't know if there's any direct or local access to the water - I just use a tap in the house.

Those taps won't work if there isn't a source of water pressure to push the water out - either mains pressure or another header tank. The outlet from a HWC is at the top, gravity alone can't get the water out unless it comes out the bottom of the tank, hence the need for a drain valve at the bottom on the cold inlet to get water out when the external water pressure is zero.

That is useful, interesting information, thanks. I have mains pressure, but that's no good if the water mains breaks. Do standard Rheem tanks have the facility for a drain at the bottom?

jonathan18:

timmmay:

Let us know what you find, I might buy a couple more. Not sure a drinking water hose is essential, it just tastes a little better, but the barrel will taste like plastic and the water will need to be treated anyway.

Sure thing - will post back here when he gets back to me.

Yeah, I think I can cope with plastic-tasting water, given that if I'm having to drink it that'll probably be the least of my worries!

So does the water need to be treated prior to drinking? The Getthru site doesn't mention this - just the requirement to add bleach at the time of filling the containers. What's the best source of purification tablets, if they are required?

I got 20L bottles from this place, which included purification tablets. I haven't done anything with the 200L tank in my shed... I do have bleach for cleaning water containers and those tablets though.

jnimmo

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#1674891 21-Nov-2016 11:41

jonathan18:

timmmay:

I would rather have simple sealed tanks that I fill from a drinking water grade house (sold by bunnings by the meter or on trademe) and refresh them every six months. I found 200L tanks online for $65 (he sells cheaper on trademe), a few of them and you're good for a while.

Thanks for this information, Tim - post-earthquake I'm realising now the need for additional water storage, given we no longer have a hot water cylinder having had an Infinity system installed last month!

I've emailed that guy to get an idea of the cost of delivery of one of those tanks, but I'd imagine this won't be cheap to the NI (given he's in Chch), especially post-quake. (BTW, his TM prices are the same as online, by the look of it; he's only got a tap-less barrel listed on TM at the moment, for the same $45 as on his website.)

Does anyone know a source of well-priced similar products (c. 200 litre drinking water barrels or storage) in the North Island?

And, as for the hose, is it critical to purchase a drinking water-certified hose? I'm realising that where we'd want to store the barrel's a good distance from the tap, so a long hose would be on the cards. What about purchasing a new but standard hose, and using it solely for this purpose?

Check out http://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/outdoor-garden-conservatory/watering-spraying/auction-1204965355.htm

EDIT: Looks like you need to request a food grade container from them

MikeAqua

7785 posts

Uber Geek

#1674892 21-Nov-2016 11:42

jonathan18:

MikeAqua:

We just have bunch of 20L water cans and steri-tablets. 10 cans would be equivalent to a 200L tanks and cost maybe $10 when refilled from town supply.

I've been thinking of the relative merits of smaller containers versus a large barrels/tanks - buying lots of 20l water cans isn't cheap (a minimum of $200 for 10?), but at least these can be easily filled closer to the tap, and moved as required. It also allows them to be stored in different places, thereby hopefully increasing the chances of some surviving any damage from a quake. None of this applies to a single barrel. (If I do go with the barrel, I'll store our current 20 litre containers somewhere else.)

Can anyone advise where to find well-priced 20-30 litre water containers in the lower North Island? Ta...

I just got hold of a few 20L jerry cans from local food manufacturer that had been used for bulk acetic acid (vinegar) and were free.

Soaking with baking soda overnight removed the vinegar flavour. I bought a drum tap for $5.

Mike

Coil

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#1674895 21-Nov-2016 11:46

It wouldnt be hard to make a self returning system on your tank, So when it rains it drains from the bottom out the top back into the down pipe. So its for ever circulating given its raining. No power required. Just need to find a way so that it doesnt siphon the whole lot out when it starts to drain overflow.

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MikeAqua

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#1674898 21-Nov-2016 11:48

jonathan18:

timmmay:

I would rather have simple sealed tanks that I fill from a drinking water grade house (sold by bunnings by the meter or on trademe) and refresh them every six months. I found 200L tanks online for $65 (he sells cheaper on trademe), a few of them and you're good for a while.

Thanks for this information, Tim - post-earthquake I'm realising now the need for additional water storage, given we no longer have a hot water cylinder having had an Infinity system installed last month!

I've emailed that guy to get an idea of the cost of delivery of one of those tanks, but I'd imagine this won't be cheap to the NI (given he's in Chch), especially post-quake. (BTW, his TM prices are the same as online, by the look of it; he's only got a tap-less barrel listed on TM at the moment, for the same $45 as on his website.)

Does anyone know a source of well-priced similar products (c. 200 litre drinking water barrels or storage) in the North Island?

And, as for the hose, is it critical to purchase a drinking water-certified hose? I'm realising that where we'd want to store the barrel's a good distance from the tap, so a long hose would be on the cards. What about purchasing a new but standard hose, and using it solely for this purpose?

Many businesses use those drums. Just have to find some that have been used for food-safe products (e.g. sodium hypochlorite). Rinse them out then buy a skin-fitting and tap from a farm or plumbing supply place. Too easy.

Mike

jonathan18

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#1674903 21-Nov-2016 11:57

jnimmo:

Check out http://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/outdoor-garden-conservatory/watering-spraying/auction-1204965355.htm

EDIT: Looks like you need to request a food grade container from them

Thanks heaps for this; I took a look through the seller's other listings, and they do have listings for barrels that are of food grade origins, such as this one.

Unlike other listings of theirs, this one doesn't include the warning re not being for potable use; and given posts above about using containers used for vinegar I'm assuming they'll be fine for drinking water. This listing says they've been used for sugar syrup or vinegar.

Only $15 delivery, so only $80 all up.

MikeAqua

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#1674947 21-Nov-2016 13:20

Vinegar (acetic acid) is used in many food products - typically condiments and pickles.

Mike

Bung

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#1675000 21-Nov-2016 14:07

mdf: As a follow up query, the spot I've identified for the barrel gets loads of sun. All the tanks I've seen are UV stabilised, but I was thinking I might paint it as well (extra WAF if it blends in to the house). Any concerns about doing that? I know we've just had some of the yellow gas pipe installed and was told to paint that even though it was notionally UV stabilised.

I've got various black, blue and white 200L drums. The black and blue seem OK but the white do get brittle after a bit of UV. As far as a bit of bird guano goes you don't drink all the water. Even if a rainwater tank isn't perfect you could wash in it etc. I find the the 10L distilled water from Countdown seems to last and last without discolouring while tap water will go green.

ObidiahSlope

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Ultimate Geek

#1675039 21-Nov-2016 15:40

If you want to go the gutter rain water collection way and wish to do little maintenance you may find this site useful. Note the siphon method of discharging overflow. The advantage of a siphon is it sucks water from the tank bottom where the nasties are more likely to lurk.

http://www.marley.co.nz/products/rainwater/rainwater-accessories/

Obsequious hypocrite

MikeAqua

7785 posts

Uber Geek

#1675058 21-Nov-2016 16:14

mdf: As a follow up query, the spot I've identified for the barrel gets loads of sun. All the tanks I've seen are UV stabilised, but I was thinking I might paint it as well (extra WAF if it blends in to the house). Any concerns about doing that? I know we've just had some of the yellow gas pipe installed and was told to paint that even though it was notionally UV stabilised.

That particular plastic doesn't hold paint very well.

Mike

mdf

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#1675073 21-Nov-2016 16:44

Thanks all. Reporting back:

- I can't find a readily available emergency water-type tank that would self replenish. There are plenty if you are looking at a 1,000L plus option as your main supply of water, but not so much at the <500L capacity (and price point) for an emergency supply.

- If you are using a tank for your main supply of water, you will get some natural self-replenishment (regardless of system) by taking supply from the bottom of the tank and having it refill at the top. But an emergency supply of water may sit there for (many) months without any real turnover in the water (depending on the system).

- Home-brewing a self-replenishing system would be possible for someone plumbingly-inclined (possibly using (new) toilet cistern parts?) but without step-by-step instructions it's not something I'd take on myself.

- Therefore for non-self replenishing options, you will need to drain the tank periodically regardless of whether its rain or tap filled. Obviously refilling by tap is going to be much less weather dependent than refilling from rain. The pessimist in me worries about the idea of catastrophe right after emptying.

- Plumbing into a downspout isn't that hard, but doing it right with leaf and first flush diverters and overflow mechanisms can add a couple of hundred dollars and limits you to spots relatively close to existing downspouts.

- I'm therefore coming around to @timmmay's approach of refilling a barrel from a tap. I can locate it out of the way and out of the sun. Easy to drain it periodically (even using it to wash the car/water the garden) and then refill from a tap. Don't have to wait for it to rain. I actually have a water main relatively close to one potential spot and am thinking about just installing a tap over the top of the tank. No hose required.

- The main advantage of plumbing in to a downspout in the event of an emergency is that if water supplies are cut off *and* it rains, you can replenish your water supply. I'm thinking that I will get a diverter, but not bother installing it unless/until there's an emergency. Some publications recommend allowing for 20L per person per day, but that seems like a heck of a lot of water to me in an emergency situation (i.e. you're not using it to bathe). Happy to be corrected there though if others have first hand experience.

- If you are thinking about this type of approach, a drinking water-safe hose seems to be a good idea. Apparently (and why would the internet lead me astray) many brass fittings (e.g. garden taps, brass fittings) can contain lead, while many hoses are full of PVC and BPA. This is compounded by leaving them out in the sun (as you do) which can cause some nasties to sublimate and there dissolve the moment water comes through the hose. Drinking water hoses seem to have an outer with an inner core. The outer has all the stuff that makes a hose tough enough to actually use, but the inner core (that the water runs through) is made out of the whimpy stuff that is safe but wouldn't last on its own outdoors. I've just bought one from Bunnings. And brass fittings for it, thinking I was doing the right thing there. Whoops.

- The guy in Christchurch with the black barrels has a notice on his website advising that shipping north has been disrupted (unsurprisingly). It's also pretty expensive - $55-odd. I've been looking around in Wellington but most of the hardware stores seem pretty cleaned out.

- WREMO / Greater Wellington Councils have ordered a bulk supply of pretty good 200L tanks (including the rainwater diverter) from the Tank Guy. These are a great price - $105 (because of the bulk buy. They're at pains to point our no subsidies). But Twitter says Wellington at least is out at the moment.

- If someone does find a supplier that can ship to Wellington and is interested in putting together a bulk order, I'd probably be keen on participating. I have a few other enquiries out and will report back if I hear anything further.

@ObidiahSlope - I couldn't see a siphon discharge option on the Marley website?

timmmay

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#1675076 21-Nov-2016 16:50

The WCC / Tank guy tanks aren't sealed, they have a hole near the top and the lid is just sitting there. I'd go for a barrel with a good screw on lid, but if you can't find one that WCC one is good enough.

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