Water pipe leaks - early 80s plastic $$$$

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#2471485 26-Apr-2020 11:45

mentalinc: Anyone have any rough idea what it costs to replace for a standard three bedroom with easy underfloor access?

I priced up the parts for our old 3 bedroom place - based on replacing everything accessible under the floor and where replacement pipes could be added without opening walls e.g hot water cupboard, laundry sink cupboard, kitchen sink cupboard. Was around $2-3k in parts for new polybuteline. Labour might be 1-2 times that?

Gemini

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#2471653 26-Apr-2020 16:25

I'm thinking about a partial reno that will enable access to 13 of the 22 hot/cold taps atm
That's pretty spendy as we're talking toilet, shower, bath, washing machine taps and three sinks.
Scope could easily increase to include new vanities, mirrors and lighting and floor and wall tiles!
Apart from the shower they are all 35 years old so could be worse

alliao

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#2471654 26-Apr-2020 16:34

my pipes weren't accessible and ended up costing 7k or so over course of 3-4 days.

was Dux Qest then once that's all done up, guessing the water pressure increased considerably the water mains then leak a little.

Then WaterCare came and gave me a new meter, which really agitated the old pipes and I had to replace the water mains from meter to the house by cutting up entire driveway length's concrete.

Which was another 4k or so. Concrete still need repairing or might as well replacing?

I guess since majority of buyer of property is actually the bank, so stuff only need to last 30yrs at most.

Polybutylene(PB) is actually banned by Calpipes due to it's untested nature I guess they knew something but couldn't prove it so just banned it outright.

Shell eventually settled. No such luck here. In fact I think NZ is still mostly PB. My new pipes were PB too. PP are about as costly to install as copper. Which is at least double the cost at least. Those who told me they'd do the job never replied; citing doing high temp work in timber frame house is just painful in general. Anyway, at the end I could only find people to do PB pipes for me. Alas.

http://www.calpipes.org/archive.aspx?aID=14139

I came from Taiwan where there's a lot of earthquakes, we use stainless pipes and lives inside concrete apartment buildings so pipes are concealed inside brick and concrete filler.. never heard of leaks. stuff just works. Seriously pipe's not something that crosses people's mind.

Granted the city council found some pipes containing lead, but since discovery the council have already replaced all old pipes with stainless steel now. Not sure about lead in water here..hopefully ok.

mattwnz

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#2471666 26-Apr-2020 16:58

Bung: The worst part of the system was the fittings. Maybe some of those got used.

It was all bad from my experience with a house that had to have it all replaced. If the pipe had a curve in it, it would generate pin pricks. Even a straight pipe could get pin prick leaks. It tended to spray water and you wouldn't know about the leak until you got a building appearing in the floor or wall, or you could hear a hiss. It is one reason I don't like new building materials that don't have a proven track record..

neb

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#2471694 26-Apr-2020 18:13

nickb800: Yeah I think black is dux qest - that's the worst. Early grey polybuteline isn't as bad but does have known issues. You're coming up 40 years so probably due

It's awful stuff, we had it here. Was lagging the copper pipes under the house with help from a friend and he bumped it with his shoulder, the whole thing more or less disintegrated dumping most of the contents of the HWC until I could crawl out and shut it off.

1cloud

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#2471744 26-Apr-2020 20:35

mentalinc: Anyone have any rough idea what it costs to replace for a standard three bedroom with easy underfloor access?

Done our one two years ago while reno the kitchen and bathrooms. Two levels house roughly 10k or less for the plumbing only. Replaced all the way from relief valve , even some of been replaced before.

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mentalinc

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#2471748 26-Apr-2020 20:50

Thanks for the rough ball parks

CPU: AMD 5900x | RAM: GSKILL Trident Z Neo RGB F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC-32-GB | MB: Asus X570-E | GFX: EVGA FTW3 Ultra RTX 3080Ti| Monitor: LG 27GL850-B 2560x1440

Quic: https://account.quic.nz/refer/473833 R473833EQKIBX

daringpeter

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#2471749 26-Apr-2020 21:01

Guys

If you have black Dux pipes and fittings, get them replaced. Here in Rotorua, plumbing is about $K3.5. Reinstatement and redecorating. more. You will get a better return when you sell. Main thing, is peace of mind. Don't wake up in the morning with your ceiling crashing down soaked with water!!!

dafman

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#2471837 27-Apr-2020 10:35

Dux quest. The gift that keeps giving. I remember it well.

Replace, don't patch. Our mistake was the reverse of this.

Amosnz

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#2471910 27-Apr-2020 11:37

There was Dux Qest in our place when we brought it, fortunately we knew about it and planned to replace as we reno'd the wet rooms.

In the roof the piping was already a patchwork where small sections had been replaced due to leaks. We were lucky, we only had about 3 more leaks before we got it all out and everytime it leaked we managed to detect it very quickly. We replaced it with copper (which not only has a high material cost but a high labour cost due to all the brazing of connectors). If I was doing it again and cost was a factor I'd consider using the double wall plastic.

I don't have cost estimates as we replaced ours over a number of years (and the plumber is a friend so we got good rates).

Speedtest

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#2471916 27-Apr-2020 11:47

Amosnz:

We replaced it with copper (which not only has a high material cost but a high labour cost due to all the brazing of connectors). If I was doing it again and cost was a factor I'd consider using the double wall plastic.

When we did some renovations our plumber did not braze any of the connections, I am not sure they even do this anymore? He just used compression fittings which seem really easy to work with. Im unsure though if we have copper or brass piping but I think it works for both. Some of the original connections in our walls are brazed but I am not sure which is best long term.

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Bung

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#2472018 27-Apr-2020 12:18

Amosnz: We replaced it with copper (which not only has a high material cost but a high labour cost due to all the brazing of connectors). If I was doing it again and cost was a factor I'd consider using the double wall plastic.

Do you mean the Speedfit PEX type? It seems odd that polybutylene got chased out of North America supposedly because it couldn't handle the chlorine levels yet it is still in service in the UK. Even copper can get holes if the chlorine levels are high as parts of NZ have found. Wellington's new Hospital is having to have all its copper replaced. It would be interesting if the cause is ever revealed.

Lastman

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#2472059 27-Apr-2020 13:29

I had to do a few repairs for black pipe in the 90s and it was two storey concrete floor, so holes cut in ceiling etc. The plumber at the time said it wasn’t the pipe but the copper clamp type connections that caused the issue.

My current house has similar black pipe but it would have been 90s and the clamp connections are steel or alloy and have never leaked.

Kickinbac

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#2472728 28-Apr-2020 11:43

My 80's house has had two leaks since I've owned it due to these fittings. There is a combination of black pipe and grey pipe used for the hot water and evidence of sections being replaced due to leaks.

When it came to insurance, as the damage was a gradual leak within the wall the insurance payout was capped at $2500. The insurance assessor said that if it had been a sudden burst we would have got a full payout.

My recommendation is that anything that has copper crimps on the fittings is replaced as this is where it usually leaks. Photo attached is of the fittings that were cut out from my house. Most of it has replaced with Buteline PB pipe which should be fine as the newer crimp fittings are better. 'Plastic' pipe and crimp fittings are quicker and easier to install than copper, therefore cheaper. The only area not done is our upstairs bathroom which will be done soon when we update the bathroom.

A side note, Most copper plumbing installations now use crimping systems. The fittings push over the pipe and have a built-in rubber o ring which is then crimped with an electric crimper, no brazing / hot works required.

Search Kembla KemPress as an example.

nickb800

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#2472738 28-Apr-2020 12:07

Kickinbac:

My recommendation is that anything that has copper crimps on the fittings is replaced as this is where it usually leaks. Photo attached is of the fittings that were cut out from my house. Most of it has replaced with Buteline PB pipe which should be fine as the newer crimp fittings are better. 'Plastic' pipe and crimp fittings are quicker and easier to install than copper, therefore cheaper. The only area not done is our upstairs bathroom which will be done soon when we update the bathroom.

Just to add to this - there is the modern Dux SecuraGold system, which uses grey polybuteline on brass fittings with a copper crimp ring - I'm not aware of any concerns with this product, and it is still for sale/widely used.

Old copper crimp ring systems are a different story.

SecuraGold is the main competitor to Buteline. Buteline has grey polybuteline on plastic fittings with aluminium crimp rings. I'm not a plumber, but Securagold seems more solid to me (not that there is anything wrong with Buteline).

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