Infra-red heating suggestions or alternate options.

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#2666540 1-Mar-2021 23:07

Thanks for all the responses. Our own 5kw heat pump in the lounge is a Toshiba and it runs hot when it’s not very cold outside, but when the temps drop it runs much cooler and only heats the room from about knees up even at full bore. It’s so cold at floor level that another heater is required. The rest of the house is ducted via heat pump and the warmth level is quiet and cosy, very different feeling to the lounge. We can’t duct there.

The flats are older 1 brm x 2 with not much room around them for putting in units. They would need one on each floor. Our tenants have been there for a number of years and we have kept the rentals extremely low without raising it the entire time. Having to spend 8k on 2 heat pumps is a lot and can’t be recouped even if we raised the rental which we really didn’t want to do. Thus the search for a cheaper option.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2666541 1-Mar-2021 23:13

5kW, dropping down to ~4kW in the cold, simply might not be enough especially with poor insulation. Or the above re cleaning filters etc.

Bear in mind that installing several 2.4kW space heaters is also going to quite quickly become not-cheap, if you have to run new circuits and maybe upgrade a board.

Insulation is also usually preferable to more heating - have you got underfloor and is it effective?

Eva888

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#2666542 1-Mar-2021 23:22

SomeoneSomewhere:
If you're having heat pump issues, first thing is to check that the filters and coil are clean. They need to be cleaned frequently, depending on how often they're used. Also try to keep the vanes angled dead ahead; sharp angles cause a lot more noise and restriction.

It should be able to maintain roughly a 20C temp rise (e.g. 15C air in, 35C air out if not more) under lazy test conditions - normal day (well above freezing), room temp ~15C, controller set to 30C, auto fan speed. Give it a few minutes to warm up.

If it can't achieve that 20C rise, you might need to get a service - refrigerant leak, piping issues, outdoor coil dirty, or more serious problems.

For some reason MoE is in love with radiant heat for new (high) schools, I assume at least partly due to higher ceilings being common.

We religiously clean the filters. Have paid $100 to have the outside unit 'serviced' all they did was vacuum and spray probably crc. I was not impressed. No way does my unit reach anywhere near 22C never mind 30C.

This is another reason I hate them for a tenancy. You have to rely on the tenant to clean the inside unit filters and you can bet they won’t bother. Servicing the outside units is another cost on top of the initial outlay.

Eva888

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#2666544 1-Mar-2021 23:45

Our own home is thick solid timber with no cavity so you can’ insulate, meant to be as good as insulation, but has high chapel ceilings.

The flats are insulated ceiling and underfloor. We could easily add $120 to the rents to bring them closer to current levels but always tried to give tenants a chance to save for their own places. Two of our past tenants managed this and started families. I have no problem installing heating but not at the cost level of a heat pump and with all the extra maintenance costs.

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#2666545 1-Mar-2021 23:47

Note that that's discharge air, not room temperature.

blackjack17

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#2666549 2-Mar-2021 06:09

Eva888: Thanks for all the responses. Our own 5kw heat pump in the lounge is a Toshiba and it runs hot when it’s not very cold outside, but when the temps drop it runs much cooler and only heats the room from about knees up even at full bore. It’s so cold at floor level that another heater is required. The rest of the house is ducted via heat pump and the warmth level is quiet and cosy, very different feeling to the lounge. We can’t duct there.

The flats are older 1 brm x 2 with not much room around them for putting in units. They would need one on each floor. Our tenants have been there for a number of years and we have kept the rentals extremely low without raising it the entire time. Having to spend 8k on 2 heat pumps is a lot and can’t be recouped even if we raised the rental which we really didn’t want to do. Thus the search for a cheaper option.

You might not want to but legally you will have to put in a decent heat source. Maybe there is something wrong with your heat pump as I have used them in national park and they have worked fine.

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#2666572 2-Mar-2021 07:50

sounds like your heat pump is undersized or out of refrigerant.

if the floor is cold as you say you need something to mix the air in the room up a bit, like a ceiling fan or point the heat pump vanes downwards to try and mix the air better.

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#2666574 2-Mar-2021 07:53

Our own heat pump has been checked. They even put a connected separate thermostat lower down the wall so it wouldn’t turn off when the temperature higher up was reached. The small fan heater I turn on at floor level evens out the temperature but obviously negates any savings from using a heat pump. Ceilings are high so inefficient, but my home problems are not the issue here.

There is no argument about not wanting to install heating in the flats. I am simply searching for alternative types of electric heating to install that do the job without needing to spend 8k on heat pumps in the process and which need ongoing maintenance. Infrared is obviously the wrong type. I will try to find something of good quality that is maybe fan assisted to heat the room faster.

Eva888

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#2666585 2-Mar-2021 08:22

Jase2985:
sounds like your heat pump is undersized or out of refrigerant.

if the floor is cold as you say you need something to mix the air in the room up a bit, like a ceiling fan or point the heat pump vanes downwards to try and mix the air better.

Our is not a small heat pump and the space was calculated before it was installed about 5 years ago. It was always unsatisfactory in cold Southerlies. The fins are pointing down and I have also tried swinging to help mix the air but that creates a cool draught as it moves away. Hot air simply doesn’t reach the floor and heat rises. Where I normally sit feels a slightly cool draught that comes from the edges of the air flow, ditto on the other side of the room where the airflow reach fades. Funny as it sounds raising my arms up above my head is how to get them warm. The cheap wee fan heater addition makes a huge difference shooting warm air along the floor.

blackjack17

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#2666589 2-Mar-2021 08:30

Eva888:
Jase2985:

sounds like your heat pump is undersized or out of refrigerant.

if the floor is cold as you say you need something to mix the air in the room up a bit, like a ceiling fan or point the heat pump vanes downwards to try and mix the air better.

Our is not a small heat pump and the space was calculated before it was installed about 5 years ago. It was always unsatisfactory in cold Southerlies. The fins are pointing down and I have also tried swinging to help mix the air but that creates a cool draught as it moves away. Hot air simply doesn’t reach the floor and heat rises. Where I normally sit feels a slightly cool draught that comes from the edges of the air flow, ditto on the other side of the room where the airflow reach fades. Funny as it sounds raising my arms up above my head is how to get them warm. The cheap wee fan heater addition makes a huge difference shooting warm air along the floor.

If you have raked ceilings you might need a ceiling fan to mix the air.

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Handle9

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#2666591 2-Mar-2021 08:32

Eva888: Thanks for all the responses. Our own 5kw heat pump in the lounge is a Toshiba and it runs hot when it’s not very cold outside, but when the temps drop it runs much cooler and only heats the room from about knees up even at full bore. It’s so cold at floor level that another heater is required. The rest of the house is ducted via heat pump and the warmth level is quiet and cosy, very different feeling to the lounge. We can’t duct there.

The flats are older 1 brm x 2 with not much room around them for putting in units. They would need one on each floor. Our tenants have been there for a number of years and we have kept the rentals extremely low without raising it the entire time. Having to spend 8k on 2 heat pumps is a lot and can’t be recouped even if we raised the rental which we really didn’t want to do. Thus the search for a cheaper option.

You really need to do the sizing calculation. As linked above if the sizing comes out above 2.4kw you pretty much have to install a heat pump or fixed gas heater. Below that you have some options like panel heaters.

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#2666650 2-Mar-2021 10:36

Eva888: Our own home is thick solid timber with no cavity so you can’ insulate, meant to be as good as insulation, but has high chapel ceilings.

The flats are insulated ceiling and underfloor. We could easily add $120 to the rents to bring them closer to current levels but always tried to give tenants a chance to save for their own places. Two of our past tenants managed this and started families. I have no problem installing heating but not at the cost level of a heat pump and with all the extra maintenance costs.

My guess is that your heat-pump is undersized for the room. And has some issues with stratification. Is the heat pump mounted above 2.4m high by any chance?

Chapel ceilings dramatically increase room volume and external surface area.

Regarding the solid Timber as insulation. A quick google search turns up wood having an R value for hardwood of 0.71 for hardwood and 1.41 per inch for softwood. If we take a rough middle value of 1.0 per inch, the walls would need to be 50mm thick to give enough insulation to meet current code. Fine if it is a log house, but seems quite thick otherwise.

Regarding the tenancies, The arguments you make around cheap rents etc are largely moot. You are required to provide heating compliant with the healthy homes act. While I admire your ethics, providing a lesser standard of heating in order to provide cheaper rent is no longer legal.

[edit] with regards to adding the fan heater, I would expect the heat pump to drop from 5kW to 4kW output in cold conditions. Adding a say 2.3kW fan heater increases the amount of heating by over 50%. I would expect this to have a big impact.

Other than adding a ceiling fan, or swapping to a floor style heatpump I don't know how to solve the stratification issue.

[edit 2] Whats the outcome of the sizing calc for the tenancies? Is there natural gas connected?

rp1790

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#2666657 2-Mar-2021 10:48

Eva888:
Our own heat pump has been checked. They even put a connected separate thermostat lower down the wall so it wouldn’t turn off when the temperature higher up was reached. The small fan heater I turn on at floor level evens out the temperature but obviously negates any savings from using a heat pump. Ceilings are high so inefficient, but my home problems are not the issue here.

There is no argument about not wanting to install heating in the flats. I am simply searching for alternative types of electric heating to install that do the job without needing to spend 8k on heat pumps in the process and which need ongoing maintenance. Infrared is obviously the wrong type. I will try to find something of good quality that is maybe fan assisted to heat the room faster.

A heatpump should not cost $8k, a 6-7KW heatpump should cost about $3k, max $3.5k installed. And that will heat a large space...

This is a 9KW monster for $3.8k https://www.trademe.co.nz/home-living/heating-cooling/heaters/heat-pumps/listing-2993935392.htm?rsqid=7a50aacf16da4692b266eea32f895042-001

Eva888

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#2666746 2-Mar-2021 12:02

Just spoke to our own installer. He informed me that the regulations have gone way over the top with regards to what’s expected. He told me about a place where the owner lived for years but now wanted to rent out and which had a perfectly adequate and newish heat pump, was required to upgrade it to12 kw because the lounge flowed on to other areas. Installer told him it was cheaper to close off areas with doors and spoil the open plan.

I’ve asked the installer to meet with me tomorrow to discuss options.

@scott3 My own heat pump is at 2.49m height with over another 1.5m above that. Just measured it. A beam below impedes it going much lower. There is no wall/floor space to add a floor unit unfortunately. Walls are approx 70mil thick. I thought to ask the installer if I can get a bigger unit here and install mine at the flats. I really dread the idea of the noise of a larger unit.

The 8k I mentioned is a rough estimate for 2 heat pumps not 1.

Sadly I will be forced to raise rentals as both rates and insurance have gone up considerably and adding expensive heating will tip the scales. I think it’s time to put them in the hands of a property manager so that we are removed from personally dealing with tenants. It’s sad that because of a few bad landlords and properties every one gets tarred with the same brush.

Fred99

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#2666783 2-Mar-2021 14:02

Eva888: Just spoke to our own installer. He informed me that the regulations have gone way over the top with regards to what’s expected.

You should post this in the politics thread. Installer stating "regulations going right over the top" might be his opinion, mine is that they're needed because some (not all) landlords failed miserably - even though there's been plenty of warning for decades this was inevitably going to happen.

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