Buy electrical goods from shop normal for electrician to charge more in labour?

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306 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1920309 15-Dec-2017 17:53

gregmcc:
Lastman:
sen8or:

Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.

You can't be serious?

You post is so full of fail it defies comprehension

Fail, how so? I simply stated an opinion and was quite clear that the safety aspect is key.

I believe the apprenticeship system is outdated and is an impediment to progress. We need to attract smarter people into the building field to get better outcomes than what we currently have.

The internet has changed things such that anyone with any analytical bent can pick up knowledge in a field extremely quickly. We need to change our methods of accrediting knowledge to reflect that.

I challenge you to prove the point, here is a quite important question, how would you do a earth loop impedance test on a standard power point circuit (power available), what kind of result would be a pass, what kind of result would be a fail, and the same test with no power available.

This is a everyday test any domestic electrician should be able to preform, maybe google would be able to help you out........

There’s plenty of You Tube videos demostrating just that but I’ll start by saying that RCDs are making ELFI somewhat redundant because you are not required to do one to test a circuit protected by an RCD. An actual physical test of the RCD trip is all that is required. I’m happy to provide a link for that if you require.

I never said the man in the street should be able to do electrical work. He will not have a meter to do an ELFI test, just that we should remove some of the archaic structures around these professions.

gregmcc

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#1920321 15-Dec-2017 18:26

Lastman:
gregmcc:

Lastman:
sen8or:

Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.

You can't be serious?

You post is so full of fail it defies comprehension

Fail, how so? I simply stated an opinion and was quite clear that the safety aspect is key.

I believe the apprenticeship system is outdated and is an impediment to progress. We need to attract smarter people into the building field to get better outcomes than what we currently have.

The internet has changed things such that anyone with any analytical bent can pick up knowledge in a field extremely quickly. We need to change our methods of accrediting knowledge to reflect that.

I challenge you to prove the point, here is a quite important question, how would you do a earth loop impedance test on a standard power point circuit (power available), what kind of result would be a pass, what kind of result would be a fail, and the same test with no power available.

This is a everyday test any domestic electrician should be able to preform, maybe google would be able to help you out........

There’s plenty of You Tube videos demostrating just that but I’ll start by saying that RCDs are making ELFI somewhat redundant because you are not required to do one to test a circuit protected by an RCD. An actual physical test of the RCD trip is all that is required. I’m happy to provide a link for that if you require.

I never said the man in the street should be able to do electrical work. He will not have a meter to do an ELFI test, just that we should remove some of the archaic structures around these professions.

Thank you for proving that you really don't know what you are talking about, the question was never about RCD's, not all standard domestic power point circuits have RCD's the reason for EFLI is about ensuring protection devices trip in the correct time. This is the kind of skill that is learnt on the job.... the stuff apprenticeships are made of

Lastman

306 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1920332 15-Dec-2017 18:44

gregmcc:
Lastman:
gregmcc:

Lastman:
sen8or:

Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.

You can't be serious?

You post is so full of fail it defies comprehension

Fail, how so? I simply stated an opinion and was quite clear that the safety aspect is key.

I believe the apprenticeship system is outdated and is an impediment to progress. We need to attract smarter people into the building field to get better outcomes than what we currently have.

The internet has changed things such that anyone with any analytical bent can pick up knowledge in a field extremely quickly. We need to change our methods of accrediting knowledge to reflect that.

I challenge you to prove the point, here is a quite important question, how would you do a earth loop impedance test on a standard power point circuit (power available), what kind of result would be a pass, what kind of result would be a fail, and the same test with no power available.

This is a everyday test any domestic electrician should be able to preform, maybe google would be able to help you out........

There’s plenty of You Tube videos demostrating just that but I’ll start by saying that RCDs are making ELFI somewhat redundant because you are not required to do one to test a circuit protected by an RCD. An actual physical test of the RCD trip is all that is required. I’m happy to provide a link for that if you require.

I never said the man in the street should be able to do electrical work. He will not have a meter to do an ELFI test, just that we should remove some of the archaic structures around these professions.

Thank you for proving that you really don't know what you are talking about, the question was never about RCD's, not all standard domestic power point circuits have RCD's the reason for EFLI is about ensuring protection devices trip in the correct time. This is the kind of skill that is learnt on the job.... the stuff apprenticeships are made of

https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1510655103

gregmcc

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#1920337 15-Dec-2017 18:55

Lastman:
gregmcc:

There’s plenty of You Tube videos demostrating just that but I’ll start by saying that RCDs are making ELFI somewhat redundant because you are not required to do one to test a circuit protected by an RCD. An actual physical test of the RCD trip is all that is required. I’m happy to provide a link for that if you require.

I never said the man in the street should be able to do electrical work. He will not have a meter to do an ELFI test, just that we should remove some of the archaic structures around these professions.

Thank you for proving that you really don't know what you are talking about, the question was never about RCD's, not all standard domestic power point circuits have RCD's the reason for EFLI is about ensuring protection devices trip in the correct time. This is the kind of skill that is learnt on the job.... the stuff apprenticeships are made of

https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1510655103

I guess you forgot that I did say the test was *never* about RCD's, it was about how to preform a EFLI test with power and without power and what a pass result would be and what a fail result would be

Stu1

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#1920377 15-Dec-2017 21:07

rphenix:
Dunnersfella:

You know if the customer is trying to save a few $ buy buying the own parts, they are probably going to be a cheap & problematic customer

THIS!!!

Sorry - don't agree many clued up customers by their own fittings to ensure they get a certain quality.

I am pretty clued up and know what is quailty, I’m still gonna pay a hell of a lot of labour for the job. I think most people want to stay within budget on a building project so look at where they can cut costs or compromise yes?

MadEngineer

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#1920389 15-Dec-2017 21:43

Lastman: I’d love these professions to be brought into the 21st century, electrical, plumbing etc. By restricting these fields to those that have done a four year apprenticeship it is extremely inefficient in cost, time and innovation.

The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend.

The problem is the safety aspect. How to ensure that the public is protected from dangerous work. There is surely ways to achieve this and open up these industries.

I do not want what you're smoking. Bit too strong for me sorry.

To answer the OP, when an electrician or in fact any tradie get a sniff that you want to supply your own gear they instantly hear alarm bells and will want to stay away.

Such job requests are often the butt of many jokes:

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

richms

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#1920391 15-Dec-2017 21:56

crappy electrical is great fun. Sparkies are a lot cheaper in AU a friend has found too, many are ok with small jobs and only charging a couple of hundred.

Richard rich.ms

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Fred99

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#1920392 15-Dec-2017 22:10

MadEngineer:

To answer the OP, when an electrician or in fact any tradie get a sniff that you want to supply your own gear they instantly hear alarm bells and will want to stay away.

It's actually on multiple levels too:

That you're a tight-ass who might not pay and cause problems.
That there are potential safety issues with the quality of stuff that you might want to supply.
That they carry a warranty over the job, and if it comes to that, they don't want a sh*t-fight over whether it was substandard gear or their workmanship.
That they probably are used to using a particular product, and dealing with "little differences" in some other product can be a PITA.

Probably with OP's situation, some other (than PDL) socket outlets sold will be okay. My son (sparky) though did some domestic work with cheap group housing companies that would supply gear, and found it very frustrating, terminating cable and then finding fittings with munted cross-threaded grub screws etc or flimsy face plates that would crack, so they'd be saving a couple of dollars to waste $10 in labour to sort it out. Stupidest thing was that at trade price, then the PDL fitting was much cheaper than the "cheap" alternative they'd supplied. Communication problem mainly - as if they'd talked this through beforehand, then the sparky company could have supplied quality gear, made a margin, but still been cheaper than the generic chinese crap that the builder and poor customer paid for.

Lastman

306 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1920395 15-Dec-2017 22:18

gregmcc:

Lastman:
gregmcc:

There’s plenty of You Tube videos demostrating just that but I’ll start by saying that RCDs are making ELFI somewhat redundant because you are not required to do one to test a circuit protected by an RCD. An actual physical test of the RCD trip is all that is required. I’m happy to provide a link for that if you require.

I never said the man in the street should be able to do electrical work. He will not have a meter to do an ELFI test, just that we should remove some of the archaic structures around these professions.

Thank you for proving that you really don't know what you are talking about, the question was never about RCD's, not all standard domestic power point circuits have RCD's the reason for EFLI is about ensuring protection devices trip in the correct time. This is the kind of skill that is learnt on the job.... the stuff apprenticeships are made of

https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1510655103

I guess you forgot that I did say the test was *never* about RCD's, it was about how to preform a EFLI test with power and without power and what a pass result would be and what a fail result would be

Ok, I'll play the game ( haven't looked at other replies)...and give a longish answer. I don't have access to the standards (nor the time) so it will also be a general answer.

The NZ power system is predominately a TN-C-S system (or strictly described as a MEN-multiple earthed neutral), earth and neutral (PEN) come from the transformer as a single wire. At the distribution board the PEN goes to the earth busbar which also has a earth wire connected to an earth stake. The earth busbar is connected via a link to the neutral busbar and earth and neutral then go their separate ways in the building. Phase comes in via a single wire or three for 3-phase.

An earth loop impedance test is to ensure that the earth (and neutral) are A) actually connected and B) that the fault impedance is less than a certain value so that there is sufficient current in a fault condition that the circuit breaker will trip. That circuit is the journey from the point tested all the way through the transformer, back through the relevant return wire to the testing point.

Ze is the external impedance ie tested from the switchboard with power to the building off (and may require other earthing ie plumbing earths, to be disconnected). For TN-C-S you don't need to test N and E separately ie L to N fault as they are the same wire, for other earthing systems you may do.

Zs is the impedance at the final circuit e.g the power point. I don't now the exact details or the ohm value (again I don't have access to the standards). I assume though the meter tests the E and N paths (as they are now seperate) and uses the maximum of the two and that value would need to be less than a specified amount. This might depend on the specs of the circuit breaker as well or it might be standard.

I don't know the test for no supply available (but it is explained in the standards). I assume the impedance back to the switchboard is measured and added to a standard or general value of Ze to give an approximation. That is just a guess. This test is generally for electricians putting in new supplies where they don't yet have power.

I did do brief research basically to remember some of the terms.

MadEngineer

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#1920399 15-Dec-2017 22:25

Fred99:

MadEngineer:

To answer the OP, when an electrician or in fact any tradie get a sniff that you want to supply your own gear they instantly hear alarm bells and will want to stay away.

It's actually on multiple levels too:

(snip)

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

richms

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#1920400 15-Dec-2017 22:27

The number of horror stories of people demanding sparkies back because they did a bad install of their bunnings sensor light and it keeps turning on surprise me. Why do they install them?

Richard rich.ms

gregmcc

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#1920401 15-Dec-2017 22:33

Lastman:

gregmcc:

Lastman:
gregmcc:

There’s plenty of You Tube videos demostrating just that but I’ll start by saying that RCDs are making ELFI somewhat redundant because you are not required to do one to test a circuit protected by an RCD. An actual physical test of the RCD trip is all that is required. I’m happy to provide a link for that if you require.

I never said the man in the street should be able to do electrical work. He will not have a meter to do an ELFI test, just that we should remove some of the archaic structures around these professions.

Thank you for proving that you really don't know what you are talking about, the question was never about RCD's, not all standard domestic power point circuits have RCD's the reason for EFLI is about ensuring protection devices trip in the correct time. This is the kind of skill that is learnt on the job.... the stuff apprenticeships are made of

https://www.electricalforum.co.nz/index.php?action=more_details&id=1510655103

I guess you forgot that I did say the test was *never* about RCD's, it was about how to preform a EFLI test with power and without power and what a pass result would be and what a fail result would be

Ok, I'll play the game ( haven't looked at other replies)...and give a longish answer. I don't have access to the standards (nor the time) so it will also be a general answer.

The NZ power system is predominately a TN-C-S system (or strictly described as a MEN-multiple earthed neutral), earth and neutral (PEN) come from the transformer as a single wire. At the distribution board the PEN goes to the earth busbar which also has a earth wire connected to an earth stake. The earth busbar is connected via a link to the neutral busbar and earth and neutral then go their separate ways in the building. Phase comes in via a single wire or three for 3-phase.

An earth loop impedance test is to ensure that the earth (and neutral) are A) actually connected and B) that the fault impedance is less than a certain value so that there is sufficient current in a fault condition that the circuit breaker will trip. That circuit is the journey from the point tested all the way through the transformer, back through the relevant return wire to the testing point.

Ze is the external impedance ie tested from the switchboard with power to the building off (and may require other earthing ie plumbing earths, to be disconnected). For TN-C-S you don't need to test N and E separately ie L to N fault as they are the same wire, for other earthing systems you may do.

Zs is the impedance at the final circuit e.g the power point. I don't now the exact details or the ohm value (again I don't have access to the standards). I assume though the meter tests the E and N paths (as they are now seperate) and uses the maximum of the two and that value would need to be less than a specified amount. This might depend on the specs of the circuit breaker as well or it might be standard.

I don't know the test for no supply available (but it is explained in the standards). I assume the impedance back to the switchboard is measured and added to a standard or general value of Ze to give an approximation. That is just a guess. This test is generally for electricians putting in new supplies where they don't yet have power.

I did do brief research basically to remember some of the terms.

Fantastic, looks like a copy and paste from a standard, some of which is incorrect for NZ. Looks like you really don't have an understanding of why a ELFI test is done, or what a pass or fail test may be.

You did say "The electrical trade, especially in regard to house installations, is intellectually trivial. You could teach anyone the basis of it in a lazy weekend."

I am thinking that you really don't know much about the electrical trade. But if you do want to learn, the domestic electrical is a good starting point.

MadEngineer

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#1920404 15-Dec-2017 22:55

It's all fun and games until someone runs some copper between two buildings and wonders why they get 415 volts. Good luck learning how that may come about and the rest in a weekend.

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

Rikkitic

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#1920412 15-Dec-2017 23:17

Lots of hostility here. It does seem rather defensive. I have to wonder (don't know, of course) how much this just has to do with territorial protection. Unless a homeowner is doing a new install from scratch, I doubt things like earth loop impedance tests are going to be a major issue. I think the point being made (though I can't speak for that person) is just that a lot of specialised training isn't really necessary for a lot of everyday jobs. Maybe it is for some things, but not for everything. As an aside, it isn't for doctors, either. That is why nurses are being given more responsibilities.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Linuxluver

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#1920429 16-Dec-2017 03:13

reven:

thats not how I see it. and I dont think its a far comparison.

You hire a builder/plumber/tiler/electrician to do a job. that job takes so much time, charge a hourly rate thats fine. Some jobs would require heaps of materials, some jobs not much and more labour intensive. Sure all materials the tradeperson supplies they make a cut on it, thats far, they have to stock it and get it etc. But if the customer supplies the materials (some materials tradies simply cannot get) their hourly rate should not go up. Sure they may not want to take that job, thats far, but blatantly charging more, piss off.

You're describing the terms of a contract you're willing to enter into. The tradie may have different terms. You either negotiate and reach agreement....or you find someone else.

I don't have endless amounts of time to waste finding the tradie who won't charge me an extra $2 on 3 plug points that I had to go and get myself (half an hour of my time gone there.....)

I've looked at this and unless I'm building an entire house it's easier, and probably cheaper......to let the tradie do the running around for me.

Usually it's only cheaper to do it myself if I place $0 value on my time and the resources I use in performing the task.

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I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

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