Suburban wind power generation practical?

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#3382071 9-Jun-2025 11:42

shk292:

Speaking as a yachtie, I’ve seen quite a few wind turbines on yachts but they seem to be gradually going out of fashion and being replaced by solar panels. There are a few boats with them on the same marina as mine, and when they are generating power in a useful wind, they are noisy. Not noisy enough to prevent conversation, but within about 50m they are very annoying and if any of my neighbours at home installed one I would be having a conversation first and making a noise complaint soon after. Obviously different models have different noise levels, but I’m quite surprised anyone would put up with the ones I’ve seen on a yacht.

Look at the prices I can see why, a 400W turbine will set you back nearly $5000, https://www.transmarinesolarsolutionsnorthland.co.nz/products/d400-wind-generator-12v-24v-48v

400W from solar would be significantly cheaper

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#3382111 9-Jun-2025 13:46

Nameplate power ratings aren't necessarily comparable, though I'm not sure which way would be superior. It's a power rating under a defined set of test conditions that is certainly not going to be met 24/7.

kWh/year is generally more useful but even then, kWh at one time of day or year is potentially more valuable than at other times

pdh

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#3382267 9-Jun-2025 22:27

On a yacht, a guaranteed bilge pump might have warranted 5000$ if you needed to protect yourself against a week of very cloudy/rainy winter weather - especially at British or Canadian latitudes (less sun). A wind generator would make the most of a breeze - for enough hours to stay afloat ;-)

In the modern days of cheap solar and (relatively) cheap Lithium batteries - you'd just buy another 10 KWh of battery and call it good.

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#3382334 10-Jun-2025 00:14

timmmay:

Is generating power from the wind practical in suburban New Zealand? Is there anything that's a practical size and price that generates a useful amount of power that's not going to bother neighbors, either one device or a small collection of them? Do councils and laws allow them to be put up?

My assumption is getting permission may be difficult, they're probably expensive, and to produce a useful amount of power they probably need to be quite large. I have seen some interesting and fairly compact designs on the internet over the past year, but I don't know if they're practical / available for residential.

We have solar, but it's not always available, in Wellington there's almost always wind.

My take is that they hayday of small wind power has passed.

Solar and batteries (although I understand residential batteries as still stubbornly expensive compared to utility batteries or automotive batteries) have got so cheap over the decade or two that small wind is not worth the effort.

Go back a couple of decades, and the majority of blue water cruising yachts would have a wind turbine mounted somewhere. That has largely gone now in favor of more solar, bigger batteries, and occasionally towed turbines.

When one can pick up 575W panels for $169 a piece from trade depot, And wind turbines (generally in the 400 W - 2 kW) range generally run in the thousands, it is hard to build a class for the latter. https://www.rvworldstore.co.nz/air-breeze-wind-turbine

Add to this, horizontal axis small wind turbines have a reputation for being noisy, prone to breakages, potentially dangerous etc. And vertical wind turbine seen to have never quite hit mainstream maturity.

At utility scale, all the recent gains in wind turbine tech generally come from making the turbines larger and larger (the whole installation becomes more cost efficient as you get larger), gains that don't translate down into little wind turbines.

Opposite is true in the solar industry where the same cells used in utility scale panels can easily be put into commercial and residential panels. And it is not just cost savings, go back to the year 2000 and panels were around 11% efficient. These days, efficiencies north or 23% are common, and I have seen as high as 24.4% (utility scale modules).

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Most residential wind turbines I see around are old, and I rarely see any that are actually running.

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#3382335 10-Jun-2025 00:40

mudguard:

I veiw it a little bit like water though. In Auckland it seems ludicrous that water storage isn't mandatory for housing. We get so much water during winter that it would a decent difference if each household hung onto some of it.

Should note that typical residential rainwater capture systems (where it it is not the main source of water) only hold ~3000L. Far to small of a volume to save winter rain to cover summer.

One of the main cost drivers for water care to provide water to the city is the peak demand (unlike power they can buffer a bit of treated water, so peak daily usage, rather than the peak minute). This happens in dry periods in summer when it hasn't rained for a few weeks (as people water their lawn's more then). At this time, nearly every rain water capture tank will be already empty, and the systems will have switched over to using city water for toilet flushing etc.

So in short rainwater tank users (who also have a city connection), contribute less to the cost of running the watercare system throughout the year, while still placing the same load on the system when it is at max strain. Not really in the cities best interest to make this mandatory.

Also in a housing cost drama, the council mandating $5k+ of extra capital cost for new builds wouldn't go down that well.

Handle9:

It seems that way until you cost it out. It almost always works out that it is cheaper to centrally provide water storage and distribution as well as providing a higher quality product.

Very much this $5k - $10k for a decent rain water harvesting setup, suppling water that is only fit for toilet flushing and irrigation. I suspect the payback period is long.

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#3382578 10-Jun-2025 18:58

Scott3:

Should note that typical residential rainwater capture systems (where it it is not the main source of water) only hold ~3000L. Far to small of a volume to save winter rain to cover summer.

standard tank size is ~20,000 litres and these days at least two are used (older homes it was one). size of 2ndary rainwater capture tanks varies massively, often its a function of the detention tank system. eg 10,000 litre tank installed, 7000 used as detention, 3000 as capture.

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#3382581 10-Jun-2025 19:02

Scott3:

My take is that they hayday of small wind power has passed.

maybe not passed, but rather not there yet.

there is some interesting new tech companies are trying. but i think one basic problem is that its a mechanical system which will always wear and need repairs.

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#3382582 10-Jun-2025 19:06

tweake:

Scott3:

My take is that they hayday of small wind power has passed.

maybe not passed, but rather not there yet.

there is some interesting new tech companies are trying. but i think one basic problem is that its a mechanical system which will always wear and need repairs.

It’s the same problem with utility wind turbines. It’s a mechanical system suspended in the air. You need to service it at height which is prohibitively expensive.

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#3382587 10-Jun-2025 19:36

Handle9:

It’s the same problem with utility wind turbines. It’s a mechanical system suspended in the air. You need to service it at height which is prohibitively expensive.

sort of. but the big wind turbines have a lot better lube, seals and cooling systems and you can climb up inside them to service them. residential turbines are typically just a standard sealed bearing with a simple seal and a dab of grease. doesn't take much wind blown rain/dirt to stuff one up.

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#3382588 10-Jun-2025 19:43

tweake:

Handle9:

It’s the same problem with utility wind turbines. It’s a mechanical system suspended in the air. You need to service it at height which is prohibitively expensive.

sort of. but the big wind turbines have a lot better lube, seals and cooling systems and you can climb up inside them to service them.

The big OEMs have tanked cash due to reliability problems. If you have to lift a gear box out, which isn't uncommon, it costs a fortune.

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#3382589 10-Jun-2025 19:48

tweake:

Scott3:

Should note that typical residential rainwater capture systems (where it it is not the main source of water) only hold ~3000L. Far to small of a volume to save winter rain to cover summer.

standard tank size is ~20,000 litres and these days at least two are used (older homes it was one). size of 2ndary rainwater capture tanks varies massively, often its a function of the detention tank system. eg 10,000 litre tank installed, 7000 used as detention, 3000 as capture.

Land is valuable in Auckland. At our playcenter we had a 3000L similine tank. They cost about the same as a regular 20,000L tank, but can fit in constrained area's.

I don't think I have ever seen a home connected to city water with twin 20,000L rain water tanks.

Stormwater detention has different economics, if it is what means a developer can squeeze an extra site into their development, the economics do really stack up for them.

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#3382597 10-Jun-2025 20:08

Scott3:

Land is valuable in Auckland. At our playcenter we had a 3000L similine tank. They cost about the same as a regular 20,000L tank, but can fit in constrained area's.

I don't think I have ever seen a home connected to city water with twin 20,000L rain water tanks.

Stormwater detention has different economics, if it is what means a developer can squeeze an extra site into their development, the economics do really stack up for them.

people usually don't bother with rainwater tanks in town due to costs. pay back takes a long time. but a lot of older houses still have tanks even tho they connect to town water as well. a common feature was the deck is the water tank. but people do still install tanks in town if they have the room. 20,000l tank is not overly expensive.

modern small sites tanks are often put underground (or under the house)and yes those specialty small tanks are expensive, i have one.

storm water is dictated by council requirements, but its not an uncommon feature for them to use part of that for water storage as they are already paying for the tank anyway. its a nice little selling feature for the developer.

Scott3

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#3382606 10-Jun-2025 20:30

tweake:

Scott3:

My take is that they hayday of small wind power has passed.

maybe not passed, but rather not there yet.

there is some interesting new tech companies are trying. but i think one basic problem is that its a mechanical system which will always wear and need repairs.

I chose my words carefully.

There are substantial economies of scale when it comes to making wind turbines larger. Hence why Utility scale turbines keep getting bigger and bigger. Swept area is is a squared function of blade length, so a little increase in blade length means a big increase in swept area. And the higher you get the better the wind is.

The money going into R&D for 6 MW+ turbines does not benefit little turbines at all. they are simply so different.

The small wind turbines of today still look and preform roughly the same as what we had 20 years ago...

While it is possible there is a massive tech breakthrough - There is not a heap of R&D going into this space (compared to say solar & battery), and for a layperson, Turbine blades and electrical generators are both quite mature. It is possible that there is some breakthrough like solid state (bladeless) wind generation, frankly it seems unlikely.

Lets take Shrouded rooftop turbines as an example. An extremely old idea, that seems it could have new relevance.

Video 1 year old with 680k views, on the VX175: www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGQTwcq0UIY

Yet, here we are, a year after production was meant to start and despite the hype, there is not even a data sheet on the vendors website.

My take is that small wind will never be cost effective for gird tied applications. Solar is now so good, and so much of the world's population lives in area's with poor wind resource, I doubt investors are lining up to fund the next small wind energy breakthrough.

Over the past two decade, solar panels have doubled in efficiency, and got so cheap, they are the clear economic winners. Seems probable the trend of increasing efficiency, and decreasing cost will continue (but does seem we may have a slight increase at some point as we come off the current situation of massive oversupply). They are economic for grid tied applications now.

Only one user here (raytaylor) has commented about deploying small wind turbines. High capex, bearing replacement every 2 - 6 years, and a total life of 6 years, mean power was nearly 3x the cost of grid power, and as such the main application can only be off grid sites, were either solar can't work, or it is essential to have diversity with solar an another energy source.

Should note these "Marine" turbines are intended for blue water yachts, a market that is close to gone, as owners of such boats are now typically using solar as their primary power source. It is possible that these won't even be available retail in a decades time.

Scott3

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#3382608 10-Jun-2025 20:45

SomeoneSomewhere:

Nameplate power ratings aren't necessarily comparable, though I'm not sure which way would be superior. It's a power rating under a defined set of test conditions that is certainly not going to be met 24/7.

kWh/year is generally more useful but even then, kWh at one time of day or year is potentially more valuable than at other times

using Raytalor, "Lucky to get 800 kWh/year", from a 400W turbine the capacity factor is about 22.8%. For comparison, a solar farm (with trackers) would be expected to have a capacity factor around 20%, and a rooftop array around 15%.

And yes there is a different value depending on time of day of energy production, but still we are talking about about around 20x the cost per watt, higher maintenance, and only a 6 year life (vs 30+ years for solar)

pdh

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#3382619 10-Jun-2025 21:30

Just built a new house (outskirts of Auckland) using tank water for drinking...

I put the tanks under the house - which cost me many thousands for structure and tanks (concrete instead of plastic). Two minimalist 25,000 L plastic tanks would only have cost 5 - 6000 $.

Costs were 250 $ for 3 down-pipe leaf diverters, 70 $ for a pre-pump filter, 570 $ for a pump, 540 $ for filters & UV, 500 $ for various plumbing bits (hose, valves & fittings). That's a total of about 2 K$ plus labour.

So, DIY and one tank = 5 K$, plumber & 2 tanks = 10 K$

I'd been paying 6 c per cubic meter from Watercare.
A cubic meter is 1000 L - so two biggest tanks (50,000 L) full of clean water is worth 3 $.

So I do escape the daily fee for (not) being connected to a water main - about 1 $ something per day.
But ignoring the sewage component (which I have to pay anyway), I'm probably saving $450 a year (at most) by creating my own drinking water.

So - about a 20 year payback (assuming zero filter & maintenance costs).

Not really worth doing unless you fear the zombie apocalypse.

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