Refitting old light circuit with new dimmable led's issues.

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Sturz

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#222952 5-Sep-2017 12:17

Hi,

I have an older 60's house which has 1mm wire (black and wire) for the lighting.

I have just put new LED dimmable lights in they have three pin plugs on them.

I have put new sockets into the roof using the 1mm lighting from the switch to the first power point (then new wire after this point), I have then joined the earth off a new circuit about to go in, so the lights can be plugged into the sockets.

I have not connected the earth wire yet as it is going to tee off a new circuit which I need to get the sparky out to connect up.

The electronic dimmers have an on / off function plus hold down to dim up and hold down to dim down.

They have two wires coming out of the dimmer both phase.

I have connected the live to one side of the dimmer then the phase wire going to the sockets on the other side.

I have joined the neutrals where the dimmer is with a screw terminal connector.

Problems:

1. When I turn off the light with the electronic dimmer, in the dark you can still see a tiny bit of light coming out of the lights, I have replaced the dimmers and it has the same problem.

2. When something else gets turned on in the house the lights flicker, even if they are turned off.

3. The dimmer does not completely dim up and down only about 20% they are meant to go 95%.

I have another circuit which has the earth connected (the lights are plastic and do not have a earth pin on the plug so I don't see how this would matter) to it which is working 100% I cannot understand why this one wont work,

Any suggestions?

gregmcc

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#1858880 5-Sep-2017 12:41

I have just put new LED dimmable lights in they have three pin plugs on them.

I have put new sockets into the roof using the 1mm lighting from the switch to the first power point (then new wire after this point), I have then joined the earth off a new circuit about to go in, so the lights can be plugged into the sockets.

I have not connected the earth wire yet as it is going to tee off a new circuit which I need to get the sparky out to connect up.

I hope the sparky who is coming out is an inspector, only an inspector can sign off home owner work

The electronic dimmers have an on / off function plus hold down to dim up and hold down to dim down.

They have two wires coming out of the dimmer both phase.

I have connected the live to one side of the dimmer then the phase wire going to the sockets on the other side.

I have joined the neutrals where the dimmer is with a screw terminal connector.

Problems:

1. When I turn off the light with the electronic dimmer, in the dark you can still see a tiny bit of light coming out of the lights, I have replaced the dimmers and it has the same problem.

have you taken the dimmer out and just used a switch, does this fix the problem, if so then the dimmer is the problem. Not an uncommon one as LED's require so little power a little bit of current leakage through the dimmer will do this.

2. When something else gets turned on in the house the lights flicker, even if they are turned off.

Another common problem with LED's, the surge of induced voltage from something else turning on will be enough for the LED's to momentary light up.

3. The dimmer does not completely dim up and down only about 20% they are meant to go 95%.

Sounds like the dimmer isn't correctly matched to the LED's sure it's the recommended dimmer for the LED's?

I have another circuit which has the earth connected (the lights are plastic and do not have a earth pin on the plug so I don't see how this would matter) to it which is working 100% I cannot understand why this one wont work,

Doesn't matter if the plug has an earth or not, the standards say if the socket has an earth pin, an earth wire must be fitted.

Any suggestions?

How about some make models of both the LED lights and the dimmer.

There are fixes for all these problem, but this is way outside the scope of what the average non-electrical person would know, get your spark to sort it out.

Aredwood

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#1859253 5-Sep-2017 21:24

Does the dimmer's instructions say that it can be used with LEDs? Some dimmers can only be used with filament lights.

It seems like your dimmer control is also an electronic switch. Virtually all electronic switches have an inbuilt snubber circuit, that lets a small amount of power flow through the switch, even when the switch is off. This is why the LEDs keep dimly glowing. Use a mechanical switch with a separate dimmer.

Often using a single filament light (a 15W one will do) connected with the LED lights will make the LEDs behave properly. As the dimmer will then see the filament load.

Either way, Getting LEDs to work properly is often a kludge. Unless you get LEDs with purpose designed drivers, where the "dimming" commands are sent directly to the drivers. This can usually only be done as part of a proper home automation system. At the very least you need to get the models of dimmers that are recommended by the manufacturer of the LED drivers.

Have a read of http://sound.whsites.net/lamps/dimmers+leds.html And you will see why dimmers and LEDs always cause problems.

And agree that you need to get a sparkie in to sort out your issues. And are you in New Zealand or the USA? As in your first sentence, if you were meaning to say "black and white wire" As USA uses black and white for their wiring colours, instead of red and black in NZ.

Fred99

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#1859269 5-Sep-2017 21:43

I'm confused as to why the OP would be wanting to wire an LED "lamp" with a 3 pin plug, but instead of "hard wired" into an existing lighting circuit, by putting 3 pin power outlets into the ceiling so they can plug in. WTF?

As far as getting a sparky to sort the issue, there's not enough good information provided to even start asking the right question(s) over the phone.

I wouldn't count on a sparky being able to give an answer based on info provided. Even if the basics can be sorted as to what the concept is, I wouldn't count on the average sparky being able to sort possible compatibility issues between the probably unknown LED lamps and dimmers if they don't know what they're dealing with. They'd make it safe, but making it work as hoped might be a long shot.

gregmcc

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#1859329 6-Sep-2017 05:29

Fred99:

I'm confused as to why the OP would be wanting to wire an LED "lamp" with a 3 pin plug, but instead of "hard wired" into an existing lighting circuit, by putting 3 pin power outlets into the ceiling so they can plug in. WTF?

typically LED down lights are supplied with a 3 pin plug on them

As far as getting a sparky to sort the issue, there's not enough good information provided to even start asking the right question(s) over the phone.

I wouldn't count on a sparky being able to give an answer based on info provided. Even if the basics can be sorted as to what the concept is, I wouldn't count on the average sparky being able to sort possible compatibility issues between the probably unknown LED lamps and dimmers if they don't know what they're dealing with. They'd make it safe, but making it work as hoped might be a long shot.

These are all typical LED problems, most domestic sparkies should be able to figure out the solution to all these problems without too much bother

Bung

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#1859495 6-Sep-2017 10:10

Sturz:

I have just put new LED dimmable lights in they have three pin plugs on them.

I have put new sockets into the roof using the 1mm lighting from the switch to the first power point (then new wire after this point), I have then joined the earth off a new circuit about to go in, so the lights can be plugged into the sockets.

I have not connected the earth wire yet as it is going to tee off a new circuit which I need to get the sparky out to connect up.

I know that you can't just tee an earth off an existing circuit it has to come from the switchboard and connecting sockets to a 1mm circuit could be another problem area. Take Greg's advice and get your electrician involved.

Sturz

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#1859497 6-Sep-2017 10:11

gregmcc:

Fred99:

I'm confused as to why the OP would be wanting to wire an LED "lamp" with a 3 pin plug, but instead of "hard wired" into an existing lighting circuit, by putting 3 pin power outlets into the ceiling so they can plug in. WTF?

That's what they came with. (2 pin p and n)

And sorry its red and black wire.

Bung:

Sturz:

I have just put new LED dimmable lights in they have three pin plugs on them.

I have put new sockets into the roof using the 1mm lighting from the switch to the first power point (then new wire after this point), I have then joined the earth off a new circuit about to go in, so the lights can be plugged into the sockets.

I have not connected the earth wire yet as it is going to tee off a new circuit which I need to get the sparky out to connect up.

I know that you can't just tee an earth off an existing circuit it has to come from the switchboard and connecting sockets to a 1mm circuit could be another problem area. Take Greg's advice and get your electrician involved.

Why not? I have a new circuit going in, I am going to get the sparky to put an RCBO in, it is running 1.5mm cable back to the board, then I have just connected the earth wire from that circuit to my other light circuit. As long as all the earths are connected I don't see the issue? its an old circuit board there is no RCD's.

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Bung

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#1859540 6-Sep-2017 11:06

Presumably because your 2nd circuit could be removed without somebody knowing that it was supplying an earth to another circuit.

gregmcc

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#1859702 6-Sep-2017 13:48

That's what they came with. (2 pin p and n)

And sorry its red and black wire.

If the socket has an earth connection on it, it must actually have an earth connected, regardless of what plugs in to it

Why not? I have a new circuit going in, I am going to get the sparky to put an RCBO in, it is running 1.5mm cable back to the board, then I have just connected the earth wire from that circuit to my other light circuit. As long as all the earths are connected I don't see the issue? its an old circuit board there is no RCD's.

Can't use one earth to service 2 circuits, unless you are familiar with AS/NZS3000 I suggest you leave this to an electrician