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Topic # 230609 4-Mar-2018 21:13
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Our back neighbour plans to build on the site. Ive met a couple of times. He popped in to mention this as there is a non compliance on the design, so he asked for feedback so I have the plans that his designer sent to the Council. Two two storey townhouses, one back, one front, the back one will back onto the back of outrproperty. There are 3 items of non compliance, one for our property on the east side and two on the south neighbours side. Our one is where the roof intrudes on the recession plane by 1.4m at worst and 0.75m at the lowest point. To comply they would need to move the home back by 2.5m, and a small list of problems that would cause. The designers say "the loss of sun for us will be only to garden areas and most affected in the afternoon when the sun is setting". The other two for the other neighbours are the south side gable where the "sun loss is minimal". They also say for the other neighbour that the max width of an intruding gable is 7.5m but the two gables (its two townhouses) are both 9.8, and another list of issues that will cause to the design, making the garage and master bedroom and ensuite not fit in

 

TBH I find this a bit annoying as the designer has sent in plans for consent, even though they don't comply, and the language of "it will compromise our design and the owners, so please let us have this"

 

My queries are:

 

1. Can the council (ChCh) decide that they can be non compliant to the recession planes and just give consent. Surely not, recession planes are there for a reason. 

 

2. Or will the Council say no dice unless you can get consent from the neighbours? 

 

Assessing the sun, and where the building's sun facing wall will be, its probably not that big a deal. But I would prefer it was compliant to the recession planes, then I have no issue. Nor will anyone else when they sell/buy properties that have a non compliant neighbouring home

 

Cheers!


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  Reply # 1968028 4-Mar-2018 21:30
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Dont sign any waivers, cause those will come soon. 

 

You need to have a chat to the council, ask them if this consent is notifiable given the issues, else the CCC may just decide for you. 

 

 




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  Reply # 1968032 4-Mar-2018 21:35
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Goosey:

 

Dont sign any waivers, cause those will come soon. 

 

You need to have a chat to the council, ask them if this consent is notifiable given the issues, else the CCC may just decide for you. 

 

 

 

 

Got that, I will call them tomorrow. Thanks for the advice.


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  Reply # 1968035 4-Mar-2018 21:47
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If it were me, I would most definitely be seeking proper legal advice on this!!

 

My [probably worthless] 2c would be tell the developers you don't care about the inconvenience if they have to adjust their plans as you're more concerned about the inconvenience to your family. It's very commendable the developers want to maximise the sun for their clients whilst not giving a hoot about you, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were quite seriously downplaying the final impact on you and you neighbours. That sun loss "only to garden areas" could not only have a major impact on what grows there but I would suspect is also based on sunlight in the middle of summer when shadows are lessened by the height of the suns arc. When the sun follows a significantly lower arc in winter you might find that shadowing is greatly more.


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  Reply # 1968036 4-Mar-2018 21:52
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I think they are going to have to come back to you for an agreement

 

https://www.ccc.govt.nz/consents-and-licences/resource-consents/resource-consent-process/exemption-for-permitted-boundary-activities

 

Get the developer to present those incursions for both mid Summer and Winter, so you can see what the maximum and minimum impacts will be,  Also if there are issues with boundry nearness for height planes and they are near existing houses get the developers to clearly specifiy where potential noise sources (heatpumps etc are going to be located.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1968037 4-Mar-2018 21:52
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what do the councils rules state? in Auckland you can get a resource consent if it doesn't comply with the building consent regulations. it may or may not be a noteafiable issue




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  Reply # 1968047 4-Mar-2018 22:18
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Dratsab:

 

If it were me, I would most definitely be seeking proper legal advice on this!!

 

My [probably worthless] 2c would be tell the developers you don't care about the inconvenience if they have to adjust their plans as you're more concerned about the inconvenience to your family. It's very commendable the developers want to maximise the sun for their clients whilst not giving a hoot about you, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were quite seriously downplaying the final impact on you and you neighbours. That sun loss "only to garden areas" could not only have a major impact on what grows there but I would suspect is also based on sunlight in the middle of summer when shadows are lessened by the height of the suns arc. When the sun follows a significantly lower arc in winter you might find that shadowing is greatly more.

 

 

Yes! Now that I have though more on this, the owner did mention when he came here today that they arent building to sell. Which makes me think........ you get the drift. One of the issues the designer made in their letter to the CCC was to avoid the elderly parents having to go upstairs too often. Now if I was building a larger home to cater for one set of elderly parents, it would not be two 4BR two storey townhouses, it would be a larger single storey. Like my neighbours, one level.

 

The compass is also off a bit. It has a sun rise and set angle for Dec and June. 




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  Reply # 1968048 4-Mar-2018 22:22
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wellygary:

 

I think they are going to have to come back to you for an agreement

 

https://www.ccc.govt.nz/consents-and-licences/resource-consents/resource-consent-process/exemption-for-permitted-boundary-activities

 

Get the developer to present those incursions for both mid Summer and Winter, so you can see what the maximum and minimum impacts will be,  Also if there are issues with boundry nearness for height planes and they are near existing houses get the developers to clearly specifiy where potential noise sources (heatpumps etc are going to be located.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tks for the link. The letter the designer sent has the plans and elevation and intrusions. Im missing the intrusion page, but I see them on other drawings. I will email them to ask off the owner can drop that off

 

Now, your link shows they can send in the design, with names and addresses of the intruded neighbours, and with written consent this becomes a permitted boundary activity. Thats not the case here, the letter is signed of asking for "the issue of approved documents" So, seems odd they are seeming to ask for CCC only authorisation. I will call CCC re what is notifiable and what isnt.

 

My address is listed nit the neighbours that have two intrusions




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  Reply # 1968050 4-Mar-2018 22:25
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Jase2985:

 

what do the councils rules state? in Auckland you can get a resource consent if it doesn't comply with the building consent regulations. it may or may not be a noteafiable issue

 

 

Same here, re @wellygary link. If there is written consent. The issue of notifiability I will ask about tomorrow. Maybe his visit today with the pians was a form of notifiability?  


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  Reply # 1968060 5-Mar-2018 00:00
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If the application goes in without your written consent the following process occurs, as I understand it.

The council will determine who are the “affected persons”. Though the boundary condition non-compliance is with your boundary you are only an affected person if the environmental effect on you is deemed to be more than “minor or less than minor”. If they decide it’s more than minor they may require limited notification.

There is no legal guidance to the determination of “minor or less than minor”.It is basically subjective and as planners are under a lot of pressure to enable housing these days they tend to be favouring applicants. The applicant is likely to dress up any non-compliance as having no effect.

If the application is approved, your only means of challenging it is a judicial review. I had a quote of $30000 as a basic starting point for this process.

If you feel the boundary non-compliance (recession plane) is going to affect you significantly I would contact the council now and express your concerns. Once an application is approved and building starts it’s almost impossible to reverse by legal means.


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  Reply # 1968062 5-Mar-2018 00:26
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IANAL. Did they apply and/or get a resource consent for this? From my understand, if something doesn't comply with a district plan of the area, my understanding is a resource consent is usually  needed along with the building consent, as they are different things. Then I understand it comes down to the discretion of the council staff as to whether they want to notify, limited notify, or not, based on if they think the effects will be more than minor etc. You may want to speak with a professional planner about it in your area, who is familiar with the rules in your particular area.

 

Also are these houses on the north side, so casting shadows across your property? If they are on the south side, you may not get much shading. 3d time lapses are possible to show how it shades at different times of the year. Shading can be worse in winter with lower sun. Also will they have windows overlooking your property, especially in the areas outside the recession plane? Overlooking upper levels can be very off putting to potential buyers, and may affect someones interest in your property, as is shading of your property.


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  Reply # 1968120 5-Mar-2018 09:16
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The designer isn't paid by you...
Paid by the neighbor. I wonder if he has conflict of interest much...

My neighbor build according to council rules and we lost significant amount of sun.
I'd hate to think how much more sun we would have lots of things were moved more.

One corner of our garden is now damp and soggy because never drys properly.

I'd say no. The rules are rules.

Why should neighbors want to build be more important than my sun.



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  Reply # 1968127 5-Mar-2018 09:30
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When a proposed building only breaches “boundary rules”

 

(e.g. setback from a neighbour’s boundary, or the daylight

 

recession plane angle), a resource consent is not needed if

 

written approval is obtained from the owners of the properties

 

on the other side of the boundary. Their approval is required

 

regardless of whether the building breaches the rule by a small

 

or large amount.

 

 

 

 

 

as per https://www.ccc.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/P-321-Neighbours-Consents.pdf

 

 

 

On that , it seems they must get Resource Consent. The designers letter focuses on the poor me for our building, and one liners of the effect will be minimal, finishing off with we look forward to the issue of approval documents. As if they are trying to tell CCC its all fine, just approve it. From what I read at the link above, if there is any intrusion, and if the application has no written consent included, the affected parties will be served, and we must then give a submission.

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  Reply # 1968128 5-Mar-2018 09:31
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My understanding is that there are two avenues to get approval for this sort of district plan rule breach. 

 

1) Boundary activity - get neighbours approval of your plan directly (sign their plans), and you can go ahead and break the rule (e.g. recession plane)

 

2) Resource consent - apply to council, they may approach neighbours (may not?), assess impacts of the breach against the reasons for the rule and make a ruling. Clearly more expensive than (1)!

 

 

 

Sounds like they are trying route 1, although running it concurrent with building consent seems ballsy




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  Reply # 1968129 5-Mar-2018 09:34
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afe66: The designer isn't paid by you...
Paid by the neighbor. I wonder if he has conflict of interest much...

My neighbor build according to council rules and we lost significant amount of sun.
I'd hate to think how much more sun we would have lots of things were moved more.

One corner of our garden is now damp and soggy because never drys properly.

I'd say no. The rules are rules.

Why should neighbors want to build be more important than my sun.

 

For us, I feel the effect is not great, only at the end of the day. But, its one thing me looking here out the window, imagining that the edge of the two storey building is in line with my pear tree, and imagining how high 8 metes is. And imagining when and how much any shadow occurs over our large back lawn.

 

By main concern is that this letter will carry weight as its already been decided that its minimal, and therefore less than minor, or minor




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  Reply # 1968132 5-Mar-2018 09:39
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mattwnz:

 

IANAL. Did they apply and/or get a resource consent for this? From my understand, if something doesn't comply with a district plan of the area, my understanding is a resource consent is usually  needed along with the building consent, as they are different things. Then I understand it comes down to the discretion of the council staff as to whether they want to notify, limited notify, or not, based on if they think the effects will be more than minor etc. You may want to speak with a professional planner about it in your area, who is familiar with the rules in your particular area.

 

Also are these houses on the north side, so casting shadows across your property? If they are on the south side, you may not get much shading. 3d time lapses are possible to show how it shades at different times of the year. Shading can be worse in winter with lower sun. Also will they have windows overlooking your property, especially in the areas outside the recession plane? Overlooking upper levels can be very off putting to potential buyers, and may affect someones interest in your property, as is shading of your property.

 

 

It is on my West boundary, I am on their East, so sun during the day is no issue. Its just at end of day. Our clothes line is potentially where shading will be

 

What I bolded is my first issue which I will call CCC about but it does seem that if there is ANY non compliance, we get notified and can submit. I will pop out later this avo to re assess shadowing


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