Advice needed - Cheap fixed speed heatpumps

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Advice needed - Cheap fixed speed heatpumps

timbosan

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#249091 25-Apr-2019 11:36

Hi all,

So a while back I posted a question on getting a portable heatpump (we rent) and the consensus was they are expensive (for what they do) and can be very noisy. So, looking at other options, I see there are quite a few cheaper (relative to the brand names) heatpumps like TCL etc. but they are 'fixed speed'. I assume that means the fan just goes on a off, and when on is going to be at the maximum?

Does anyone have any comments on these? We are thinking of removing it when we leave, especially if its a more expensive unit.

Examples, 7KW installed for $1799 (this is the cheap fixed speed one) - https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=2029221019&archive=1

vs:

Fujitsu E3 6KW $2599 installed https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=2035872327

vs:

Mitsubishi 6kw, $3000 with no installation https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=2037848736

Notes - the house is 1970's brick and tile, insulated in ceiling and underfloor. We are scheduled to get a Sayr system in the next month. We currently use electric heating - there is no gas option where we are. House is in Auckland

Thanks all!!!!

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#2224515 25-Apr-2019 11:55

Tell the landlord to cancel the ventilation system and spend the money on a heatpump instead.

Otherwise wait for a good secondhand heatpump to come up for cheap on Trademe.

Note also that there are new heating regulations in the works. Which will mean that if your lounge is over a certain size. The landlord will have to provide either a heatpump or a woodburner. Which in reality will default to a heatpump, due to consents and council rules for woodburners.

Or offer to pay $10 extra rent per week if the landlord gets a heatpump installed now. The landlord would be stupid not to accept that.

richms

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#2224517 25-Apr-2019 12:04

Fixed speed means the compressor is either off or on, they cycle, are usually quite noisy when doing so and if you only need a bit of cooling or heating they will come on, blast you with icy or inferno air, then turn off.

Really unpleasant.

I expect many cheap pieces of trash to be installed to meet the pointless laws that have to be complied with, and then to sit unused just like all existing heating and ventilation that landlords have installed because the people that need to heat their house up are too cheap to actually do that nomater what equipment is provided.

Richard rich.ms

timmmay

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#2224520 25-Apr-2019 12:06

Heat pumps are usually permanent. Removing a heat pump may require a lot of remediation work. There will be holes to fill, painting, maybe new gib or weatherboard, depending how is installed.

timbosan

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#2224562 25-Apr-2019 12:20

richms: Fixed speed means the compressor is either off or on, they cycle, are usually quite noisy when doing so and if you only need a bit of cooling or heating they will come on, blast you with icy or inferno air, then turn off. Really unpleasant. I expect many cheap pieces of trash to be installed to meet the pointless laws that have to be complied with, and then to sit unused just like all existing heating and ventilation that landlords have installed because the people that need to heat their house up are too cheap to actually do that nomater what equipment is provided.

Funny enough when I was speaking to the landlord last week, this is exactly what he said - it doesn't matter what he puts in (heatpump, heaters, etc.) most of his previous tenants never used them (mainly due to running cost). I don't mind paying to be warm, I just don't want my power bill to double or more when I could have more efficient heating.

timbosan

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#2224564 25-Apr-2019 12:26

Aredwood: Tell the landlord to cancel the ventilation system and spend the money on a heatpump instead.

Otherwise wait for a good secondhand heatpump to come up for cheap on Trademe.

Note also that there are new heating regulations in the works. Which will mean that if your lounge is over a certain size. The landlord will have to provide either a heatpump or a woodburner. Which in reality will default to a heatpump, due to consents and council rules for woodburners.

Or offer to pay $10 extra rent per week if the landlord gets a heatpump installed now. The landlord would be stupid not to accept that.

Interesting idea. I have also thought of a heatpump (having had one before in my own place) as localised heating (focusing on winter here). The Sayr system is a whole house, and, as far as I can tell, is a step up from the HRV systems.

Wouldn't a whole house heatpump system be way way more expensive?

Aredwood

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#2224714 25-Apr-2019 12:48

Why is the landlord installing a ventilation system? As often damp problems are actually caused by lack of heating rather than lack of ventilation. And lots of tenants complain about ventilation systems. As they often blow cold air into the house overnight during winter. Which makes the house even harder to keep warm.

Also consider dehumidifiers. As they put out more heat than the power used, due to recovering the latent heat from water vapor.

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raytaylor

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#2224802 25-Apr-2019 13:18

If you have a mould or damp issue, then definitley get a ventilation system. On a cold night you can just turn them off and the HRV brand one just switches itself back on after 8 hours.

But a heat pump would be more useful if you had to choose.

I have been discussing it with one of our landlords where we have a commercial lease for a workshop, and they said they will credit us the depreciated value of the heat pump when we move out. That might be $500 after 3 years but thats still better than paying for remedial work.

A residential landlord might think differently where my advice would be
- wait a couple of months to see what happens with the heating rules. The land lord might put up the rent more than...

- offer an extra $10 per week if the landlord puts in a heat pump for you now. This might be less than what the landlord raises the rent by with the heating rules changes if you have already pre-negotiated it.

- put it in yourself and agree for the landlord to buy it off you at a set price/sliding scale when you move out. To HP one over 5 years is about $10 per week

$10 per week works out to be equivalent to running a 2kw fan heater for 20 hours.

A heat pump is pretty much the most cost effective way to go. Personally I'd rather my power bill going up by $20 per week over winter than spending $420 for firewood.

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timmmay

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#2224805 25-Apr-2019 13:23

I wouldn't have any house use air from the ceiling cavity. It's not unusual for rats to get in there, old insulation, and they usually use cheap ineffective filters. I have a positive pressure that takes air from the outside, but I have a cheap timer shut it off 3pm in winter, and then only go on for a short time after dinner and before heating comes on in the morning. For a new system put in heat exchange or don't bother.

We have two heat pumps that effectively heat our whole house, with doors open. Some rooms take a while to heat up, and we use oil heaters in bedrooms at night rather than leave the pumps on. Old well insulated 140 sq m house costs about $220 per month to heat, but that's with 25% of my power free on electric kiwi.

Aredwood

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#2224810 25-Apr-2019 13:47

raytaylor:
If you have a mould or damp issue, then definitley get a ventilation system. On a cold night you can just turn them off and the HRV brand one just switches itself back on after 8 hours.

If the damp issue is due to the house being surrounded by lots of trees, or being in a location that gets 0 sun during the winter. Then the outside air is likely just as damp as the inside air. And no ventilation system would ever make any difference in those houses.

And ventilation systems often have uninsulated ducting, no dampers installed with their fans etc. So can still loose warm air or let in cold air through the ducting. Even when turned off.

And some of them have electric heaters included with the fan unit. Which use lots of power for very little heat. As they are constantly trying to heat cold incoming air.

Edit to add

The OP wants better heating. And the landlord will soon have to install better heating. So it makes sense to upgrade the heating first.

If the dampness is caused by lack of heating. Then better heating would fix that. If the dampness is caused by water leaks or similar, fix the damm leaks. If caused by too many trees, chop down the trees. In other words, fix the actual cause.

And the new rental rules will actually require better ventilation. But in the form of kitchen range hoods and bathroom extractor fans.

timbosan

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#2225013 25-Apr-2019 20:58

raytaylor:

If you have a mould or damp issue, then definitley get a ventilation system. On a cold night you can just turn them off and the HRV brand one just switches itself back on after 8 hours.

Not really - we have crying windows in the mornings, and occasionally a puddle on windowsills, but nothing major (no mold, nothing running a dehumidifier overnight cannot solve).

The house isn't surrounded by trees or lots of shade either.

timbosan

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#2225014 25-Apr-2019 21:02

Aredwood:
raytaylor:

If you have a mould or damp issue, then definitley get a ventilation system. On a cold night you can just turn them off and the HRV brand one just switches itself back on after 8 hours.

Edit to add

The OP wants better heating. And the landlord will soon have to install better heating. So it makes sense to upgrade the heating first.

If the dampness is caused by lack of heating. Then better heating would fix that. If the dampness is caused by water leaks or similar, fix the damm leaks. If caused by too many trees, chop down the trees. In other words, fix the actual cause.

And the new rental rules will actually require better ventilation. But in the form of kitchen range hoods and bathroom extractor fans.

Yah, back onto topic! I was actually interested in heating (and cooling in summer when it arrives again), so I see 2 options:

1) Talk to the landlord and see if we can work out changing his plans from Sayr to a heatpump
2) Just doing it myself and worrying about uninstalls / rebates / etc. when we move out

Another question - do I propose a whole-house heatpump system, or just 2 separate ones (one in the living area, the other somewhere else, like the other end of the house? In a bedroom? I heard hallways are not a good location, is that correct?

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timbosan

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#2229144 2-May-2019 08:15

So just to update this a bit. The Sayr people have been in touch and have said the landlord have installed a few of these at his other properties, and likes them, so there's little chance in changing his mind. His money and his property, so I am OK with that. Site visit is next week.

As for the house, I noticed over the past few days, now we are getting colder mornings, that the windows in the bedrooms definitely have heavy condensation (to be expected in this house I guess), but not to the point of puddles of water.

I am now looking at better heatpumps, and if I can be bothered getting it uninstalled, or just talking to the landlord when we move out about some sort of credit. My current idea is something like this 6KW Fujitsu https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=2045907333 . We there is always nearly someone home I see this as an investment in health and comfort, and happy to pay for that myself. Plus I don't see the difference in the money side compared to running electric heaters and spending way more on power in comparison.

Anyone interested in knowing about how the Sayr install goes, and how it works? I see these types of questions come up on geekzone such as HRV vs. other systems, etc.

Paul1977

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#2229172 2-May-2019 09:03

Having spent a little time in my ceiling cavity, I would not want to have that air pumped into the house. I don't care how good they claim their filters are.

And surely in summer when the roof space gets crazy hot, it will pump hot air into the house when that's the last thing you want? Conversely, in winter when the roof space is probably cold, you'll get cold air?

I'm no expert, but when we looked at these a couple of years ago we decided that a balanced system with a heat exchanger would be the only type we'd consider. In the end we didn't go ahead as we didn't feel our house was damp enough to warrant the expense.

EDIT: We didn't look at or investigate Sayr specifically.

timbosan

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#2229203 2-May-2019 09:43

Paul1977:
Having spent a little time in my ceiling cavity, I would not want to have that air pumped into the house. I don't care how good they claim their filters are.

And surely in summer when the roof space gets crazy hot, it will pump hot air into the house when that's the last thing you want? Conversely, in winter when the roof space is probably cold, you'll get cold air?

I'm no expert, but when we looked at these a couple of years ago we decided that a balanced system with a heat exchanger would be the only type we'd consider. In the end we didn't go ahead as we didn't feel our house was damp enough to warrant the expense.

EDIT: We didn't look at or investigate Sayr specifically.

In the end, this doesn't worry me too much as:

1) I am not paying for it

2) We can always turn it off

I am also planning on a heatpump separate from the Sayr system

timmmay

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#2229381 2-May-2019 13:10

Agree that ceiling cavity air shouldn't be used at all. If it is those sock filters are insufficient, a good G / F rated filter would be required, and they'd need to be changed regularly.

Wet windows won't bit fixed by heating, that will make it worse as the water carrying capacity of warm air is higher than that of cold air. Ventilation and double glazing will fix it. Pumping cold air into your house at night will fix it, at the expense of having a cold house. If you ventilate with positive pressure and leave heating on at night you will probably fix the problem but increase your power bill.

Double glazing along with daytime ventilation and evening heating mostly fixed the condensation problem for us. We still get a bit of mist on the windows on cold days, but nothing like the wet windows that would soak a whole towel per window that we used to get.

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