Paying rent for signover day/paying for cleaning before handover

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funnyfela

349 posts

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#279647 29-Oct-2020 22:37

Hey everyone,

My property manager has emailed me saying there is an outstanding balance for one day rent. However she told me that the property must be signed over by midday the day she is claiming rent for, so due to work it was signed over the day before.

Because she wanted the property by midday, the advice I've had from family was that I shouldn't be paying the rent for that day. (rent paid till 25 Oct, keys handed 25th, she wanted keys no later than midday 26th).

Its not the money as such, but after the cleaning issue I'm not exactly happy with the situation.

Also, I spent heaps of time cleaning. I received a text early that week that behind the oven was dirty (hadn't thought to do there) however when I went to do it, it was done. And things like the toilet etc, didn't think much of it.

On handover day I found out she had a cleaner in for half a day and I was paying for it. I didn't agree to it. I didn't even know. I don't think this is right, it was my place still and I wasn't even given a chance. Apparently the kitchen floor was dirty even though I had mopped it too... Which was weird. Was pretty heartbroken she wasn't happy.

The new Tennant also wanted the carpets done, also only found out at handover that she had the carpet cleaners in already and it too was coming off my bond. I didn't know anything about it till then and now am quite annoyed about it all. Is this all legit or normal? Family telling me it's not.

Don't get me wrong, the place was clean. Apparently she is pedantic I've since heard though. The whole thing has just left a very sour taste for my first time renting :(

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Delphinus

611 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2593712 29-Oct-2020 23:21

https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/disputes/breaches-of-the-residential-tenancies-act/unenforceable-clauses-in-tenancy-agreements/ this might help, especially the top of the table:

"A tenant only has to leave the premises in a reasonably clean and tidy condition. Tenants do not have to leave the carpets in a professionally cleaned state." - I think they are taking the piss and you shouldn't pay for any additional cleaning at all. Not for carpet cleaning, and not for the half day cleaner provided you have made a reasonable effort.

https://www.landlords.co.nz/article/976515159/getting-end-of-tenancy-clean-ups-right also states Tribunal rulings make it clear that “reasonably clean and tidy” does not mean being cleaned to professional standards.

You might need to take this to tribunal, or at least threaten to.

Is there any chance you took any photos when you left? Or did the landlord take any of the 'unclean' state?

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Bung

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#2593714 29-Oct-2020 23:26

The info you need is on the Tenancy Services web site.

"A tenant only has to leave the premises in a reasonably clean and tidy condition. Tenants do not have to leave the carpets in a professionally cleaned state."

Edit: should have just +1'd Delphinius

michaelmurfy

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#2593715 29-Oct-2020 23:27

So I'm not going to discuss from a legal perspective as I am not in the space to do so but that doesn't sound right. When I left my last rental (forever - as I bought a house) the landlord just asked us to clean the house the best we can. We were longer-term tenants (there for 5 years) and I told him that we also caused damage to one of the walls.

Anyway, I did the cleaning business and nothing came out 100% perfect - it is expected for wear and tear to happen (his words also). The wall I disclosed to him. On the day before inspection I put the washing machine on a cleaning cycle and Murphy's law it leaked everywhere overnight with mere minutes before the landlord to do the final inspection.

Verdict - he was very happy with the cleaning job I did. He didn't mind the washing machine flooded part of the house (this was his washing machine) and forgave me for the wall because I was open and honest about it and did offer to paint it (he said he had paint and would do it himself) - I got 100% of my bond back. He went through afterwards and did a full professional clean and didn't charge me for it - he claimed it is of best interest of the next tenant and wants to keep them long term so will do everything he can to make that happen.

I've been in a fair few rentals in my life and have never had to pay a "cleaning fee" out of my bond. I've had crappy landlords who have attempted to charge me for stuff out of bond (of which I disputed and they lost the argument on the spot). You've done your job and left the house in a clean state.

The Tenancy website has a tonne of information for you - but this essentially answers your question: https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/disputes/breaches-of-the-residential-tenancies-act/unenforceable-clauses-in-tenancy-agreements/

I'd personally dispute the fact this is coming from your bond. Unless if you're not telling 100% of the story your landlord has no ground to stand on. But this is seriously my own understanding of it and I am no lawyer. You can phone Tenancy Services for advise too which I've personally done on multiple occasions.

Edit:

The new Tennant also wanted the carpets done, also only found out at handover that she had the carpet cleaners in already and it too was coming off my bond. I didn't know anything about it till then and now am quite annoyed about it all. Is this all legit or normal? Family telling me it's not.

This is not at all your responsibility. 100%. This is your landlords agreement with the new tenant. Also the other warning bell is the fact she let cleaners in while it was technically leased by yourself without any warning - what if you were still there? It is never OK for a landlord to enter a property without prior consent from the tenant even if it is nearing the end of tenancy and she thought nobody was there. Seriously threaten the tenancy tribunal unless if you get 100% of the bond back and bring up these points.

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Danite

42 posts

Geek

#2593716 30-Oct-2020 00:52

Agree with all above posts, im a inexperienced landlord and have been to a couple of seminars, as said above any "commercial cleaning" requirement even if written into the contract cannot be enforced. Take it to or threaten to take it to tribunal and as long as the property is in reasonable condition, you will win.

mattwnz

20044 posts

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#2593717 30-Oct-2020 01:37

Delphinus:

https://www.tenancy.govt.nz/disputes/breaches-of-the-residential-tenancies-act/unenforceable-clauses-in-tenancy-agreements/ this might help, especially the top of the table:

"A tenant only has to leave the premises in a reasonably clean and tidy condition. Tenants do not have to leave the carpets in a professionally cleaned state." - I think they are taking the piss and you shouldn't pay for any additional cleaning at all. Not for carpet cleaning, and not for the half day cleaner provided you have made a reasonable effort.

Aren't people supposed to get their carpets professionally cleaned / washed every so often? I think some carpet manufactures have this written into their warranty. Often lighter coloured / white carpets discolour badly with age. But I guess that is one reason rentals often have lower quality synthetic carpets in them , that are often darker coloured.

It is also probably why rentals tend to be cheaper lower quality houses, and would be why many of them aren't great places to live.

Handle9

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#2593763 30-Oct-2020 06:31

Tell her to take you to the tenancy tribunal for the cost of cleaning and the one day rent otherwise you want your bond back in full. Do not pay her a bean. Do not sign anything agreeing to have anything deducted from your bond.

She'll back down fast or you'll go to the tenancy tribunal and she'll get reamed.

This nonsense really p1sses me off. I'm a landlord and try and treat my tenants like customers, not cattle to be milked.

Batman

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#2593764 30-Oct-2020 06:38

the last time i rented i took over 200 photos before moving in ... coz got burnt as a student

over the time i was renting i got so many freebies every time i whipped out a photo.

even the rent got reduced when "health and safety" was mentioned along with - out comes another photo [probably 12]! (though this happened in the fisrt 2 weeks of moving in lol)

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#2593767 30-Oct-2020 06:44

funnyfela:

Hey everyone,

My property manager has emailed me saying there is an outstanding balance for one day rent. However she told me that the property must be signed over by midday the day she is claiming rent for, so due to work it was signed over the day before.

Because she wanted the property by midday, the advice I've had from family was that I shouldn't be paying the rent for that day. (rent paid till 25 Oct, keys handed 25th, she wanted keys no later than midday 26th).

Its not the money as such, but after the cleaning issue I'm not exactly happy with the situation.

Also, I spent heaps of time cleaning. I received a text early that week that behind the oven was dirty (hadn't thought to do there) however when I went to do it, it was done. And things like the toilet etc, didn't think much of it.

On handover day I found out she had a cleaner in for half a day and I was paying for it. I didn't agree to it. I didn't even know. I don't think this is right, it was my place still and I wasn't even given a chance. Apparently the kitchen floor was dirty even though I had mopped it too... Which was weird. Was pretty heartbroken she wasn't happy.

The new Tennant also wanted the carpets done, also only found out at handover that she had the carpet cleaners in already and it too was coming off my bond. I didn't know anything about it till then and now am quite annoyed about it all. Is this all legit or normal? Family telling me it's not.

Don't get me wrong, the place was clean. Apparently she is pedantic I've since heard though. The whole thing has just left a very sour taste for my first time renting :(

is there a public forum where you can complain about property manager? do it anonymously and leave no identifying detail.

be careful they also have a secret forum - you don't want to get on their blacklist or you could have a hard time getting rental.

be firm but polite?

Eva888

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#2593820 30-Oct-2020 09:42

Also wonder if this is a bit of a rort by the property manager to pocket the extras. I would also run it past her boss who may not be aware of what goes on.

Paul1977

4983 posts

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#2593826 30-Oct-2020 09:59

Out of interest, when did she get the professional cleaning done? Before you handed the keys back?

For the days rent for the 26th, if I understand it you were out of the property and had returned the keys on the 25th? This may come down to when the rental agreement ended rather than when you actually returned the keys - I'm not sure. However if she insisted on getting the keys no later than midday then I think you'd have a good case for not having to pay (especially since you had returned the keys on the 25th) - but I'm not a lawyer.

I'm with the others, don't agree to anything being deducted from your bond that you think is unreasonable. Sounds like she's trying to screw you over.

EDIT: Just re-read your post and the cleaners were in before handover. I don't think she can get people in without telling you while you are still technically renting the property. And if it was before handover then she didn't give you a chance to rectify any issues she had with the cleaning. Again I'm not a lawyer, but this surely isn't right.

1101

3121 posts

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#2593851 30-Oct-2020 10:26

Not a lawyer ....
Doesnt any rental bond now have to be lodged/held by a 3rd party service
If so, landlord cant just take whatever they want from the bond.

I would see where the bond is being held. If the landlord kept the bond, they could be in a bit of trouble .

Citizens Advice Bureau used to have free legal advice (from actual lawyers) , try them .
Sounds like they are just trying it on . A property manger should know exactly what they can & cant do , legally .

Obviously , if they wanted you out by midday, they cant charge rent for that day .

andrewNZ

2487 posts

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#2593861 30-Oct-2020 10:32

First, don't let them take your bond! Don't sign anything.

Let the property manager take this to the tribunal.

Having been through the tenancy tribunal process as a tenant, I can tell you that it isn't that scary.
My property manager got a dressing down by the adjudicator and was ordered to return my bond in full.

You need to make sure you have hard copies of any communication between you and the property manager. Write down what happened, on what days. Be specific.
-include that cleaners had been in and you hadn't been notified.
-Include the time and date the keys were returned.

In the tribunal, if you have it written down, it carries lots more weight than if you don't.

alasta

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#2593877 30-Oct-2020 11:00

The property manager is taking the piss, but how much you should fight back might depend on your circumstances. If you don't already have good references, you live somewhere with a tight rental market such as Wellington, and you are planning to be renting for a while then you might need to consider the long term consequences of having your name against a tribunal ruling.

It's not fair, but it's the reality of the housing shambles that we have in this country.

Shadowfoot

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#2593892 30-Oct-2020 11:15

Sounds like it was perfectly clean at the time of the handover.

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Paul1977

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#2593950 30-Oct-2020 13:53

Shadowfoot:

Sounds like it was perfectly clean at the time of the handover.

Good point. If the property manager chose to send cleaners in prior to handover without the OPs permissions then surely that's on her. The OP handed over perfectly clean house, who did the cleaning is irrelevant.