NZ house building is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

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olivernz

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#281540 23-Feb-2021 21:21

Hi all

I need to vent somewhere before I burst (sorry folks!!).

So, embarking on house build. Going passive house thinking I may get a descent build BUT....

It turns out I think I now know why NZ has such sub standard housing stock! All the building materials seem to come straight out of the 80ies or 90ies.

No idea what rock/mineral wool is, never mind any clue why you'd use it. No proper PEX piping system (i.e. Uponor PEX), nothing equating to ZIP exterior sheeting, I'll just keep it short and say mains power design -nuff said-, never mind those laughable double glazed windows with solid aluminium frames. And the the worst is the the so called SMEs haven't got a clue.

I've talked to architects/building companies that have no clue what thermal bridges are (or play dumb for whatever reason), that say a 90mm wall is something good or that building to NZ building code is just fine (sorry, NZ building code is MINIMUM requirement!!!!).

Under those circumstances no wonder there is no hope in sight for NZ housing. (Also dawning on me why the Transmission gully maybe isn't completed yet!!)

I have removed the copious amounts of expertises in the above. Add them freely to get a gist of how seething I am at the moment. (And this is not directed at a specific person or company but an industry).

Oliver

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#2661962 23-Feb-2021 21:28

What is your point of comparison?

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#2661984 23-Feb-2021 22:20

Keep moving until you find the right people - you don’t discuss Lamborghinis in a Toyota dealership.

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#2661987 23-Feb-2021 22:46

where u based? i know an architect who specializes in this area ...

olivernz

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#2661997 23-Feb-2021 23:22

Good analogy with the Toyota. Thanks! Very fitting.

As for architect I have one but the problem is none of them have a chance if their hands are tied behind their back and we can't get the materials for some descent build.

My point of comparison is Europe and US/Canada.

As I said, this is a new penny that dropped. I never thought that this would be the issue I faced. I always thought it would just be too expensive to build with good materials but not that it would be impossible because there's no getting hold of them.

jarledb

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#2661999 23-Feb-2021 23:23

I don't know this company (other than they having a presence in Kapiti Coast), and I am no expert in building. But I am from Norway and used to properly insulated houses and have lived in them most of my life.

The eHaus Euro seem to be set up to build "the proper way", without the NZ "double glazed alu windows".

Renting a house that was built 3 years ago and have to turn on the heat to keep 22 degrees inside when it goes below 15 degrees outside. To me that is crazy.

Norwegian houses you wouldn't turn on the heat before the temperatures go below 0 degrees. Last place I lived the underfloor heating in the bathroom kept the apartment warm on its own until it was -15 degrees outside.

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#2662003 23-Feb-2021 23:42

It turns out I think I now know why NZ has such sub standard housing stock! All the building materials seem to come straight out of the 80ies or 90ies.

Sometimes I feel like NZ residential building innovation basically stopped in the 80's. Sure, there are a few things changed mainly aimed at price reduction. Some people point at local monopolies as the issue. On the plus side, the government mandates on insulation standard and double glazing had a very positive result. Maybe more of the same is needed elsewhere in residential construction.

Handle9

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#2662008 24-Feb-2021 06:30

PEX has an appalling reputation in NZ due to mass failures. NZ tradesmen won't touch it.

Rockwool and mineral wool used to be sold but the combination of the supply chain cartels and high cost made it uneconomic.

NZ is a tiny market and you won't get a huge range of products. It's the way it is and won't change.

Dynamic

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#2662011 24-Feb-2021 07:20

You specifically mentioned ali windows... I've had impressive results from http://homerit.co.nz/ uPVC window replacements.

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#2662015 24-Feb-2021 07:58

Handle9: PEX has an appalling reputation in NZ due to mass failures. NZ tradesmen won't touch it.

Rockwool and mineral wool used to be sold but the combination of the supply chain cartels and high cost made it uneconomic.

NZ is a tiny market and you won't get a huge range of products. It's the way it is and won't change.

"PEX has an appalling reputation in NZ" please tell us more- all the usual suspects are still advertising PEX. Aqualine list UPONOR PEX-A

Knauf Earthwool sold by Bunnings is a rockwool.

The ZIP sheathing mentioned by the OP seems to be regarded as the best thing since sliced bread or "a failure waiting to happen" depending on who you believe.

PS Toyota have won the LMP class at Le Mans for the last 3 years. I've forgotten the attribution but it has been said that you need 20/20 vision when looking at Italian cars, they all look good if you don't spend more than 20 minutes and stand 20m back.

Handle9

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#2662018 24-Feb-2021 08:14

Bung:
Handle9: PEX has an appalling reputation in NZ due to mass failures. NZ tradesmen won't touch it.

Rockwool and mineral wool used to be sold but the combination of the supply chain cartels and high cost made it uneconomic.

NZ is a tiny market and you won't get a huge range of products. It's the way it is and won't change.

"PEX has an appalling reputation in NZ" please tell us more- all the usual suspects are still advertising PEX. Aqualine list UPONOR PEX-A

Knauf Earthwool sold by Bunnings is a rockwool.

The ZIP sheathing mentioned by the OP seems to be regarded as the best thing since sliced bread or "a failure waiting to happen" depending on who you believe.

PS Toyota have won the LMP class at Le Mans for the last 3 years. I've forgotten the attribution but it has been said that you need 20/20 vision when looking at Italian cars, they all look good if you don't spend more than 20 minutes and stand 20m back.

Yeah sorry you're right I got dux and PEX mixed up - it's late here.

Google knauf and fletchers and you'll see a lovely trail of litigation.

olivernz

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#2662024 24-Feb-2021 08:30

@Handle9/@Bung : PEX never had issues in NZ. It's the Polybutelene that has the issues and that's still the crap they are trying to hawk today. PEX is lkightyears ahead of that stuff. (also beware there is several PEX categories for different uses)

@Bung: Knauff Earthwool is Fibreglass! https://www.knaufinsulation.co.nz/products/earthwool-glasswool-insulation-ceiling-batt But nice to see the marketing works 😆

@Bung: I knew a Ferrari owner that was never happier than when he bought his Porsche 😂

@jarledb : Yes, eHaus is currently one of the best options it seems (see PM).

@Dynamic : My windows will be from Germany. It's a new build not replacement.

@gzt: Yeah kudos for Govt doing a bare minimum. But they so missed the goal. Sure new builds have double glazing but the frames are still solid aluminium. Might as well put in that single glaze again. How about mandating interior temperature at maximum heating KW per year. That will lead to better walls, ceilings, windows,... but no, we can't expect our builders to learn how to build and it will be far too costly yadi yada yada. But sell a 100k house for $1m sure! (sorry I still seem to be annoyed)

olivernz

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#2662028 24-Feb-2021 08:46

@Dynamic: The problem with NZ PVC windows is this (quote from website) "For “extra high” wind zones there are some design limitations". NZ windows are missing a steel core to give them more rigidity. So if you're wind exposed the seals can fail during wind and then you have the dancing curtains all over again. Also the thermal bridging design is next to non existent in those. Ok for non living areas like garages etc.

Fred99

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#2662029 24-Feb-2021 08:55

Knauf is a German owned company and supplies the European as well as the US/Canadian markets with "mineral wool" products.

A commonly used "upgrade" system over building wrap in NZ is "ecoply barrier" (coated and treated square edge stuctural ply). It also provides bracing.

FWIW, the minimum air temperature ever recorded in Auckland was approx -3 C / 27 F, in Christchurch -7 C / 20F.

NZ winter doesn't get as cold as most of Europe or USA/Canada - not even close.

Jase2985

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#2662030 24-Feb-2021 08:58

There are companies that can import high quality German UPVC windows for less than a High Quality Aliminium one here, and you get better performance.

I know of at least 3 different building companies, 2 in ALK and one in CHCH that will bulid to passive house standards. and its something they do all the time.

Alot of the problem here is fletchers has a majority in the building products industry and is very protective of that. this leads to prices of products being pushed up.

Its sad when you can buy a 2.7mx1.2m sheet of 12mm C/D plywood that's come from Chile cheaper than you can buy one thats made in NZ. but thats whats its like for alot of products these days.

I suspect if you went to the effort of importing most of your building products you could save quiet a bit on the cost of the build.

Fred99

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#2662080 24-Feb-2021 09:23

Jase2985:I suspect if you went to the effort of importing most of your building products you could've save quiet a bit on the cost of the build.

Yet when governments have investigated the industry for price gouging, the outcome hasn't supported the "common knowledge" that we're getting ripped off. (Except for a few cases where supply companies colluded to avoid competition.
Retail markups on many building materials in NZ are huge.

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