Healthy Homes Confusion - Re heating tool

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Stephendnz

47 posts

Geek

#306291 10-Jul-2023 20:59

Has anyone had any experience with getting their rental property up to the so-called "healthy homes" standard?

On the one hand, the HHS says: "Landlords must have enough fixed heaters installed so that a whole living room can be heated to 18 degrees, even on the coldest day of the year.

And then you get this "tool" that takes you through a very complicated calculation where you have to calculate the size of each wall, the windows, insulation - everywhere ceiling, floors, walls etc. And then it spits out this answer that says you need 7kw of heating to heat that space. What a load of BS!!!

This is a 1940's house that we renovated and have lived in for 7 years, and have now moved out and will be renting it. So we had insulated it up the wazoo, and were well able to get the room to a constant 18 degrees+ - actually more like 20-21, using a 2.4 kw 3 bar radiant heater. It has a thermostat, as required, and cuts off when it reaches the desired temperature, then just clicks in when needed. I have also since then also retrofit double-glazed all the windows so am very confident that it will be etc etc. On VERY cold nights, we have occasionally boosted with an oil-filled heater.

Hope that wasn't too much of a preamble, but I am as frustrated as hell being faced with putting in heating that I know will be way overkill for the space. So can anyone advise if they have had a similar experience and how did they deal with it?

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400 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3102432 10-Jul-2023 21:03

We did ours last year before we let it out. If you have a good property manager they will organize it all for you and tell you what you need to do.

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Handle9

9647 posts

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#3102434 10-Jul-2023 21:13

There's no real confusion.

The legislation has the formulas for calculating the amount of fixed heating required and you comply or you don't.

If you don't agree then you can pay for an independent assessment but you will struggle to have electric only heating comply unless it's a shoebox sized lounge.

It is what it is, as are the other compliance requirements.

Handle9

9647 posts

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#3102439 10-Jul-2023 21:27

BTW the applicable external temperatures are scheduled. For Auckland it is 1 degree.

Using an oil column heater to top up the heating on "very cold nights" doesn't comply with the regulations.

tweake

1055 posts

Uber Geek

#3102456 10-Jul-2023 21:47

Stephendnz:

Has anyone had any experience with getting their rental property up to the so-called "healthy homes" standard?

On the one hand, the HHS says: "Landlords must have enough fixed heaters installed so that a whole living room can be heated to 18 degrees, even on the coldest day of the year.

And then you get this "tool" that takes you through a very complicated calculation where you have to calculate the size of each wall, the windows, insulation - everywhere ceiling, floors, walls etc. And then it spits out this answer that says you need 7kw of heating to heat that space. What a load of BS!!!

This is a 1940's house that we renovated and have lived in for 7 years, and have now moved out and will be renting it. So we had insulated it up the wazoo, and were well able to get the room to a constant 18 degrees+ - actually more like 20-21, using a 2.4 kw 3 bar radiant heater. It has a thermostat, as required, and cuts off when it reaches the desired temperature, then just clicks in when needed. I have also since then also retrofit double-glazed all the windows so am very confident that it will be etc etc. On VERY cold nights, we have occasionally boosted with an oil-filled heater.

Hope that wasn't too much of a preamble, but I am as frustrated as hell being faced with putting in heating that I know will be way overkill for the space. So can anyone advise if they have had a similar experience and how did they deal with it?

i would be interested to know what info you used in the tool.

one of things is the calcs typically base the draftiness of the home based off age. with a 40's built its going to be pretty poor. that may or may not be accurate especially with remodeled houses.

but without knowing what location, size of room, windows etc its hard to comment.

mattwnz

19389 posts

Uber Geek

#3102469 10-Jul-2023 22:50

I am struggling to understand the issue. We have a new house with R 6 and R 4 ceiling and wall insulation, and it neet still needs heating and for that we have awoodburner as well as a powerful heat pump. These days people don't use bar heaters as a primary heat source, because apart from safety, they are also inefficient and expensive to run. So people renting would have a big cost.

Renting out a house is a commercial operation so it must meet certain standards. The sand standards don't apply for owner occupiers, but being the owner they can upgrade it themselves, which renters can't do.

Handle9

9647 posts

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#3102471 10-Jul-2023 22:53

mattwnz: I am struggling to understand the issue. We have a new house with R 6 and R 4 ceiling and wall insulation, and it neet still needs heating and for that we have awoodburner as well as a powerful heat pump. These days people don't use bar heaters as a primary heat source, because apart from safety, they are also inefficient and expensive to run. So people renting would have a big cost.

It's going to cost OP some money to become a landlord. That is the issue.

Froglotion

206 posts

Master Geek

#3102476 10-Jul-2023 23:38

Meeting the HHS is the easy, stress free part of renting out a house. I'd bail now on that idea if it's a sticking point.

openmedia

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#3102486 11-Jul-2023 07:37

Compare their calculator with a typical heat pump calculator like

https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/heatpump/how-to-choose-the-right-size-heat-pump.aspx

The HHS calculator recommended 5kW whilst the above calculator recommended a 2.6kW heat pump.

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SirHumphreyAppleby

2527 posts

Uber Geek

#3102496 11-Jul-2023 08:40

Stephendnz:

Hope that wasn't too much of a preamble, but I am as frustrated as hell being faced with putting in heating that I know will be way overkill for the space. So can anyone advise if they have had a similar experience and how did they deal with it?

First of all, you are 100% correct. We have a very open plan mid-'80s home, with single glazing, 30+ year old 'insulfluf' in the ceilings and no insulation in the walls. We can comfortably heat the area with a 1.8kW heater, but the calculator calls for some absurdly high level of heating.

We haven't dealt with it in this home, since home owners aren't subject to the higher standards that apply to rental, but we have dealt with this in other properties. How did we deal with it? We did what the calculator required, because rightly or wrongly (and it is wrong), that's the standard things are measured against.

Everybody in the industry I have talked to, including a former Council building inspector, has agreed that the calculator is BS.

Wombat1

400 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3102499 11-Jul-2023 08:58

Handle9:

It's going to cost OP some money to become a landlord. That is the issue.

No need to have a go at the OP because he wants to rent out a property. This was all a new expereince to us too when we rented out our place which is an early 80's build. We had to replace a few things but it did not cost the world.

Bung

5443 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#3102552 11-Jul-2023 09:46

The Government knows the calculator is a lemon and made changes for homes built after 2008. The method used in the calculations should be fixed instead. Why should a fully retrofitted building not be treated the same?

Nate001

607 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3102570 11-Jul-2023 10:05

I found the calculator to be ridiculous for its heating suggestions. Having lived in our place for many winters I know it doesn’t get that cold inside yet the calculator said I needed a massive unit. Way above what the installer recommended and also my own research. Second winter with this “undersized” unit according to the calculator and it can easily keep the space at 23c, well above the requirements.

Part of the issue is the assumed outside temperatures used. As mentioned earlier Auckland is 1c yet in the central AKL where we are it’s never close to that.

But for the extra cost to meet the requirements it’s easier to just install the larger unit the calculator says because good luck arguing with the inspector. It’s black and white, no common sense.

tweake

1055 posts

Uber Geek

#3102574 11-Jul-2023 10:21

SirHumphreyAppleby:

First of all, you are 100% correct. We have a very open plan mid-'80s home, with single glazing, 30+ year old 'insulfluf' in the ceilings and no insulation in the walls. We can comfortably heat the area with a 1.8kW heater, but the calculator calls for some absurdly high level of heating.

We haven't dealt with it in this home, since home owners aren't subject to the higher standards that apply to rental, but we have dealt with this in other properties. How did we deal with it? We did what the calculator required, because rightly or wrongly (and it is wrong), that's the standard things are measured against.

Everybody in the industry I have talked to, including a former Council building inspector, has agreed that the calculator is BS.

small point, i would call that a 70's. @handle9 was saying a little while ago wall insulation was required in the late 70's. i have fully insulated 80's house that has 70's windows ceilings etc, ie made from left overs. insul fluff ceiling and no wall insulation was pretty typical for late 70's from what i've seen from crawling around in the stuff.

for comparison, my fully insulated 80's house (it has extra insulation) single glazing, pretty typical design and i have 5kw heat pump (6kw heating) for the lounge and thats actually very well sized. its barely enough on those really cold days, which is how it should be. btw i'm talking auckland/northland temps.

there is no way a badly insulated open plan house only requires 1.8kw heater. there is no way your ever going to heat the home properly. BUT, that is fairly normal for kiwis, which is rather sad. it all depends on what you call "comfortable" and kiwis are very well taught not to heat homes.

going by a different calc i used years ago, 1.8kw is about right for the typically small bed rooms. which i found to be fairly accurate. my 2.5kw are oversized for the bed rooms, but that what the installer had.

the original healthy homes calc used very low location temps, but that was changed afaik. tho i see it lists auckland as 1c which is a tad low. however they are also only working to a minimum temp of 18c, not the recommended temp of 22c.

tweake

1055 posts

Uber Geek

#3102579 11-Jul-2023 10:27

Nate001:

Part of the issue is the assumed outside temperatures used. As mentioned earlier Auckland is 1c yet in the central AKL where we are it’s never close to that.

auckland actually does get colder than that. even last year it hit -2. but having said that i think its a little low, but they are only working on keeping a minimum of 18c which is also low.

i would not mind betting that theres a bit of human factors to get around. kiwis think that minimum temp is the temp it should be at, because kiwis have been taught not to heat homes. so to keep people happy they used that 18c temp then lowered the outside temp to enable proper heating of homes.

tweake

1055 posts

Uber Geek

#3102581 11-Jul-2023 10:33

Bung: The Government knows the calculator is a lemon and made changes for homes built after 2008. The method used in the calculations should be fixed instead. Why should a fully retrofitted building not be treated the same?

one of issues is later homes tend to be more air tight due to construction methods. its still lousy and variable but its better than earlier houses. but early houses can have a massive variation in air leakage and the calc will simply assume they are all bad. so you will get some old houses that need less heating than others.

the proper way is to test the house, but i think everyone will complain about the cost of that.

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