Coax jack in middle of power outlet

Forums › Home Workshop DIY › Coax jack in middle of power outlet

mb82

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Master Geek
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#310674 11-Nov-2023 19:18

Is there any reason I shouldn't or can't have a power outlet like this
https://www.electricaldirectltd.co.nz/product/1784-PDL-Socket-Outlet-600-Series-Twin-switched-Assembled-Horizontal-Extra-switch-240-V-10-A-White?gclid=CjwKCAiAxreqBhAxEiwAfGfndHIBf5_TBnu7jThwEABSSQl6xr92C59zvASEzwVAbpYFI2cWt9yBRRoCA18QAvD_BwE

And replace the standalone switch in the middle with a coax jack like this
https://www.electricaldirectltd.co.nz/product/2049-PDL-F-Type-Connector-Communication-Module-SKY-Legend?gclid=CjwKCAiAxreqBhAxEiwAfGfndGRe9iLtjLzko2575T-Z1RxEObTj3qMJRMq016cQzpXcaDfhsEVUCxoCcQ4QAvD_BwE

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#3158393 11-Nov-2023 19:26

you are supposed to have 50cm separation from 240vac and everything else.

Any views expressed on these forums are my own and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3158404 11-Nov-2023 20:32

50mm, but yeah. My understanding is that that's a comms guideline for reducing interference though, not a hard-and-fast legal safety rule.

On the other hand, there legally needs to be adequate clearance, an earthed barrier, or a double-insulated or reinforced insulation barrier between mains and not-mains.

That avoids stupid things like the phase wire falling out or snapping off, and hitting the coax. Or the jacket on the inner core rubbing through or suffering from cold flow from the pressure over the years. Or various other possible failure modes.

From that point of view, it might be compliant to do it if you then sleeved the coax and termination with a layer of double-wall heatshrink, all the way from the back of the faceplate (including the connector) out of the box. I think there might still be a compliance issue with ELV and LV on the same plate, though.

Just put another box in.

mb82

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Master Geek
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#3158406 11-Nov-2023 20:35

nztim:

you are supposed to have 50cm separation from 240vac and everything else.

50mm makes more sense unless this is a new rule because I have often seen the coax jack beside or underneath the powerpoint

mb82

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Master Geek
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#3158411 11-Nov-2023 20:56

SomeoneSomewhere:

50mm, but yeah. My understanding is that that's a comms guideline for reducing interference though, not a hard-and-fast legal safety rule.

On the other hand, there legally needs to be adequate clearance, an earthed barrier, or a double-insulated or reinforced insulation barrier between mains and not-mains.

That avoids stupid things like the phase wire falling out or snapping off, and hitting the coax. Or the jacket on the inner core rubbing through or suffering from cold flow from the pressure over the years. Or various other possible failure modes.

From that point of view, it might be compliant to do it if you then sleeved the coax and termination with a layer of double-wall heatshrink, all the way from the back of the faceplate (including the connector) out of the box. I think there might still be a compliance issue with ELV and LV on the same plate, though.

Just put another box in.

Place I got it from (not the place linked) said I can put it in, but that means yes it fits not yes it is compliant. Found this in the standards:

3.2.2 Ensure cables in your electrical installation are placed at
least 50 mm from any door bell circuit, or other circuit
operating at a voltage that is different from the 230 V
electrical installation.
3.2.3 Ensure cables in your electrical installation are placed at
least 50 mm from any telecommunications circuit to p

tweake

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#3158412 11-Nov-2023 20:57

i've had cases where you get interference from the power cable due to cables to close. usually its not hard to cut another box in and use separate wall plate. it also makes replacements a lot easier.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3158413 11-Nov-2023 21:01

mb82:

SomeoneSomewhere:

50mm, but yeah. My understanding is that that's a comms guideline for reducing interference though, not a hard-and-fast legal safety rule.

On the other hand, there legally needs to be adequate clearance, an earthed barrier, or a double-insulated or reinforced insulation barrier between mains and not-mains.

That avoids stupid things like the phase wire falling out or snapping off, and hitting the coax. Or the jacket on the inner core rubbing through or suffering from cold flow from the pressure over the years. Or various other possible failure modes.

From that point of view, it might be compliant to do it if you then sleeved the coax and termination with a layer of double-wall heatshrink, all the way from the back of the faceplate (including the connector) out of the box. I think there might still be a compliance issue with ELV and LV on the same plate, though.

Just put another box in.

Place I got it from (not the place linked) said I can put it in, but that means yes it fits not yes it is compliant. Found this in the standards:

3.2.2 Ensure cables in your electrical installation are placed at
least 50 mm from any door bell circuit, or other circuit
operating at a voltage that is different from the 230 V
electrical installation.
3.2.3 Ensure cables in your electrical installation are placed at
least 50 mm from any telecommunications circuit to p

I think that is from ECP 50/51, which isn't the standard most installations are built to - sparkies have to work to ASNZS 3000. If you're DIYing and getting an inspector to sign off (needed for new work), you're in the unenviable position of needing to comply with the ECP, but the inspector is inspecting it against the rules in 3000.

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mb82

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Master Geek
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#3158414 11-Nov-2023 21:03

I think the 50mm rule makes usb/socket combos questionable or is that allowed because it is double insulated? I know it is not 240v wire near 5v wire but it is 240v wire near 240-5v step down connections less than 50mm

https://www.bunnings.co.nz/deta-double-power-point-with-3-4a-dual-usb-charger_p0314652

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3158419 11-Nov-2023 21:21

The rest of the socket is separated from the converter by a plastic box. The converter should have good separation between the mains side and the low voltage side, and often includes glue and physical barriers to ensure things can't come loose. Foreign objects can't get into the plastic box. The critical components are usually the transformer (primary windings well separated from PCB windings) and the PCB layout (e.g. 3-5mm clearance, anti-tracking slots where this may be tight).

This generally satisfies the requirement for double or reinforced insulation.

The 50mm requirement/guideline is for communications lines, which may be subject to interference.

mb82

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Master Geek
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#3158421 11-Nov-2023 21:28

SomeoneSomewhere:

The rest of the socket is separated from the converter by a plastic box. The converter should have good separation between the mains side and the low voltage side, and often includes glue and physical barriers to ensure things can't come loose. Foreign objects can't get into the plastic box. The critical components are usually the transformer (primary windings well separated from PCB windings) and the PCB layout (e.g. 3-5mm clearance, anti-tracking slots where this may be tight).

This generally satisfies the requirement for double or reinforced insulation.

The 50mm requirement/guideline is for communications lines, which may be subject to interference.

Plastic box, glue and should have good separation Make me nervous about the quality of modern switches etc. My 30 year old oven switch is looks 5x the quality and build of modern oven switches. I see someone else on here used a double pole switch just to get something which looked half decent https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=141&topicid=249191

Conductors for different electrical installations or individual
occupancies forming part of single or multiple electrical installations are
installed in a common enclosure they shall be segregated within that enclosure.

Segregation may be achieved by the use of independently
sheathed cables, barriers of fire-resisting material or by distance (minimum
50 mm).

Segregation of different voltage levels
Cables of high voltage circuits and cables of low or extra-low voltage
circuits shall not be enclosed in the same wiring system.
Cables of low voltage circuits and cables of extra-low voltage circuits shall
only be enclosed in the same wiring system where one of the following
arrangements is true:
(a) The low voltage cables are of a type providing the equivalent of double
insulation.
(b) All cables or each conductor of a multi-core cable are insulated for the
highest voltage present.
(c) The low voltage cables are installed in a separate compartment of a
common cable trunking system having fixed and continuous barriers
between compartments.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#3158425 11-Nov-2023 21:41

Yeah, I'm not exactly quoting the standards there. The basic answer is that there are requirements for creepage and clearance, and those requirements need to be met even with vibration. Epoxy potting is the next step up but I don't think that's widely done for the electronic converters. It was for old school isolating transformers.

There are some terrible older products out there - the old PDL switches/sockets with the rounded sides have very poor switch design that leads to them sitting half-on half-off or otherwise acting intermittently - and a poor contact is a great way to have a fire.

I do agree that high-current switches seem to have suffered to the aim of size reduction.

For your segregation quote, note that we are looking at LV & ELV circuits. HV circuits are e.g. the 11kV running down the street or to a transformer in the building basement. 230V is legally low voltage. So as long as either a) all the LV cables are double insulated, like TPS or extension cords, or b) all the cable is rated at least 450V even if single insulated, we're fine to have them in the same box or conduit.

Bung

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#3158430 11-Nov-2023 22:13

In the 1980s Telecom resisted the PDL modular faceplate idea mixing phone jacks (with rubber boots over wiring) and LV switches because fault staff wouldn't be able to legally access the phone wiring as you'd need electrical registration to open the fitting.

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raytaylor

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#3158448 12-Nov-2023 09:04

Bung:

In the 1980s Telecom resisted the PDL modular faceplate idea mixing phone jacks (with rubber boots over wiring) and LV switches because fault staff wouldn't be able to legally access the phone wiring as you'd need electrical registration to open the fitting.

Tangent: Reminds me of just a few years ago when the definition of low voltage AC and DC was changed. Chorus stuck its hand up and said "Hey we have thousands of telephone techs who work with ringing voltages that would no longer comply - they are not doing 3 year electrical apprenticeships" so an exception was made for telco stuff.

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#3158449 12-Nov-2023 09:07

Back to topic:

I say one thing OP should consider - wall warts.

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snnet

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#3158469 12-Nov-2023 09:43

mb82:

I think the 50mm rule makes usb/socket combos questionable or is that allowed because it is double insulated? I know it is not 240v wire near 5v wire but it is 240v wire near 240-5v step down connections less than 50mm

https://www.bunnings.co.nz/deta-double-power-point-with-3-4a-dual-usb-charger_p0314652

Perhaps classed more as an appliance

tweake

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#3158475 12-Nov-2023 10:13

mb82:

I think the 50mm rule makes usb/socket combos questionable or is that allowed because it is double insulated? I know it is not 240v wire near 5v wire but it is 240v wire near 240-5v step down connections less than 50mm

https://www.bunnings.co.nz/deta-double-power-point-with-3-4a-dual-usb-charger_p0314652

i suspect you will find that all the usb low voltage side is separated and is not exposed out the back. compared to tv connectors which have exposed metal connections at the back, not far from exposed 240v connections on the sockets.

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