2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2829496 9-Dec-2021 14:23

freitasm:

quickymart:

is there any discernible difference between "anti vaxx" and "pro choice"?

It is just them trying to use some weasel words. It's the same crap.

Ditto, from what I can tell they want the choice to hold an anti-vaxx belief...

But they will never admit that because they will dance on the head of a pin to argue that if they had the choice of the right vaccine and could choose it totally free from coercion from, The Govt, Big business, The Wiggles or anyone else telling what to do, they would roll up and take it.... yeah right...

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#2829505 9-Dec-2021 14:41

freitasm:

The anti-vaxxers coopted the "Pro-choice" term but I doubt they would support abortion - mainly in the USA.

But you can't expect logic from those people.

I do feel that the "pro-choice" slogan was chosen deliberately to confuse and conflate the idea of "alt-right anti-vaxer" with the idea of "liberal" (although probably not "pro-abortionist"), so that the historic liberal connotations of pro-choice would soften the image of anti-vaxers. Just like "healthy young funloving people" ads sell Coke. And I'll bet that "pro-choice" was deliberately chosen by the liberals because it sounds so much better than "pro-abortion", and because the idea of "choice" appeals to right-wingers, so makes the label and person more acceptable.

Sup

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#2829600 9-Dec-2021 18:36

So we have two American antivaxx Doctors who are married to one another in Christchurch.

It is fascinating they finished evangelizing in foreign countries so they can set up their brand here, while running five medical clinics in the US...all from Ch ch.

I suppose we are a soft touch...laying in wait to be colonized by the American far right.

Just keep swimming...

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#2829610 9-Dec-2021 19:11

Americans! *sigh

ezbee

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#2829627 9-Dec-2021 20:31

Weight loss clinics, I'm sure there is no scope for dodgyness in their core business.
Someone should review the scripts they are writing.

However we do seem to have a few of our own as well, but authorities don't seem to investigate.
I remember articles on authorities doing regular stings on underage alcohol sales and checking if dairys would sell tobacco products to kids ?
Doctors breaking the law not so much.

Its pretty easy, send someone in mumbling about having done their own research with camera and mic and you are done.

Geektastic

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#2829638 9-Dec-2021 21:38

We ran up against the no vax thing for the first time today.

My wife texted friends and asked if they would like to go to the cinema and then dinner on Sunday.

"Sorry; can't as {insert husband's name} not vaccinated."

As my wife said, does that mean they won't ever be going out to dinner again? To which I replied that the guy is so tight that the moths in his wallet have holes in them, so it will probably suit him!

For the last 10 years or so, they have always come to our house for Boxing Day and now we have to decide whether to do that thanks to his idiotic and selfish behaviour.

The only way that he will have the jabs is if he is told he cannot work unless he does or if he decides to travel again.

Edit for clarity: he is not vaccinated because, like my mother, he thinks everything in whatever equivalent of the Daily Mail he reads is true, not because he has had no opportunity or cannot be. He's a shepherd and has been lecturing me about Ivermectin for months - I suggested that if he was so convinced of its powers he should head to Farmlands and buy some! He did not....

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quickymart

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#2829645 9-Dec-2021 21:59

For people like that it's easier to complain and do nothing, and keep reading misinformation online, as opposed to actually getting up and doing something.

I was thinking today, the virus really is putting governments everywhere between a rock and a hard place. The mandate has personally irked a few people I know (mostly work colleagues), but imagine if we didn't have it?
Before Delta arrived in August, I think the fully vaccinated rate was quite low, somewhere around 20%? and now it's closer to 90%.

Imagine if we had done what happened in America with Trump, ie, nothing for months and months and then very little (no masking, no lockdowns, no vaccine). In the meantime the death toll rises rapidly and starts to really impact people.

Kiwis here would have been jumping up and down, "WAAAHH!! THE GOVERNMENT DID NOTHING!! MY RELATIVES DIED OF CORONAVIRUS AND THEY DIDN'T CARE OR DO ANYTHING AT ALL TO HELP!!"

Now we have a highly effective vaccine. Problem is, the other Kiwis are jumping up and down, "WAAAHH!! THE GOVERNMENT IS TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!! I DON'T LIKE BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO!! I ONLY BELIEVE THE (mis)INFORMATION I SEE ONLINE!! THE VACCINE DOESN'T WORK AT ALL!! THEY'RE TAKING AWAY MY FREEDOMS WITH THIS STUPID MANDATE!! WHO KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT!!"

Sorry to diverge a little, but was there ever any solution that would make everyone happy? Or not really?

Either:

High death toll, due to little-to-no state intervention

Vaccine freely available to most of the population, one of the lowest death tolls in the world, and to ensure the disease really doesn't take off, the vaccine mandated to certain parts (but not all) of the population, p'ing off the loudmouth/vocal ones who don't like being told what to do, causing them to hold (seemingly endless) protests?

It's a tricky situation and I don't know if there is any middle ground, at all.

(sorry for the caps/yelling, I'm just deeply, deeply frustrated at the latter portion of the population right now. It's like they want to catch it just to teach a lesson to...the man?) 😡

Sup

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#2829655 9-Dec-2021 23:03

I hear all the frustration in the room.

And I wonder how long Governments will tolerate people who act as a never ending reservoir for disease which harms the vaccinated. I see in Europe four waves is about where the line is.

I do not understand how people who plan on getting Covid un protected, do not understand that for one thing one quarter of them develop no meaningful immune response, and for another they are going to get Omicron. All of them are going to get Omicron.

How can you not understand that Covid is going to continue to reinfect you, damage cells, cause an accumulation of stress on organs systems, and it is going to keep trying to do this for the rest of your life.

One group may prove an exception with Omicron. The infected who recovered and got vaccinated, and perhaps the reverse order will stand up well also.

But for those just rocking out with no vaccine help, that immunity while strong, eventually wanes too....and yeah Omicron has just started kicking down Deltas door and is kicking Delta down the road.,,,the places Delta is, and has been, are not meant to be places where a new variant can just kick off an exponential curve...straight over the top of the Delta immunity population!

Even if Omicron is milder....do we have any idea how Covids long term repeated incursions are going to contribute to global chronic illness?

The UK say one million cases are possible before years end. That is hopefully wrong...because that is just walking over the top of old Delta and Alpha burn off like it isn't the firebreak that infection acquired immunity is meant to be.

I should say I am not panicking here as a fully vaccinated person. Not panicking at all. The booster will be great though, that is really promising in the lab so I look forward to that.

Just keep swimming...

quickymart

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#2829671 9-Dec-2021 23:15

This is just total selfishness.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/anti-vaxxers-are-damaging-reefton-community-board-chair-says/AZHJPLIB2M3CGMIR7HYYECFN2M/

Reefton is a small town (I have family there) and it amazes me that some people there are behaving like this...I'm lost for words 😔

What are they trying to prove???

arcon

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#2829799 10-Dec-2021 09:30

quickymart:

This is just total selfishness.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/anti-vaxxers-are-damaging-reefton-community-board-chair-says/AZHJPLIB2M3CGMIR7HYYECFN2M/

Reefton is a small town (I have family there) and it amazes me that some people there are behaving like this...I'm lost for words 😔

What are they trying to prove???

Ugh that's sad, really shows the amount of damage Jim-Bobs can do when there's too many in one community.

Rikkitic

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#2829820 10-Dec-2021 10:03

If this issue is to be improved at all, the tone of the discussion has to change. If we assume everyone who hasn't been vaccinated by now is a lost cause, then we should just accept that and either sanction them into the dirt or just learn to live with the fact. If we think some can still be persuaded, then we have to quit insulting them with jokes about their stupidity and try to take their fears seriously. Those who think they are in the matrix probably can't be helped because any argument or fact will just be seen as another deception. But some are still worried about vaccination side effects. These are rare but not non-existent and the antivaxers have successfully distorted this to raise doubts in susceptible people. Others still see it as a matter of principle. We can laugh at them or dismiss them all we like, but that isn't going to change any minds.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

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wellygary

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#2829824 10-Dec-2021 10:11

arcon:

quickymart:

This is just total selfishness.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/anti-vaxxers-are-damaging-reefton-community-board-chair-says/AZHJPLIB2M3CGMIR7HYYECFN2M/

Reefton is a small town (I have family there) and it amazes me that some people there are behaving like this...I'm lost for words 😔

What are they trying to prove???

Ugh that's sad, really shows the amount of damage Jim-Bobs can do when there's too many in one community.

Well .. Aucklanders are coming, and it will seep out with them,

There will be plenty of antivaxxers who will leave via a "negative test" and we all know that will still allow positive cases to slip through.

Scott3

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#2829832 10-Dec-2021 10:43

Rikkitic:

If this issue is to be improved at all, the tone of the discussion has to change. If we assume everyone who hasn't been vaccinated by now is a lost cause, then we should just accept that and either sanction them into the dirt or just learn to live with the fact. If we think some can still be persuaded, then we have to quit insulting them with jokes about their stupidity and try to take their fears seriously. Those who think they are in the matrix probably can't be helped because any argument or fact will just be seen as another deception. But some are still worried about vaccination side effects. These are rare but not non-existent and the antivaxers have successfully distorted this to raise doubts in susceptible people. Others still see it as a matter of principle. We can laugh at them or dismiss them all we like, but that isn't going to change any minds.

It is tragic how adversarial this situation has become.

That said, we are still continuing to slowly by surely continue to make inroads with vaccination.

3,786 first doses yesterday. That's about 0.09% of the eligible population in a single day. Big drop on the 6000+ a day (excl sunday) before the last set of mandates kick in, but still solid given we are now in a phase of reminiscing returns.

Hopefully will see a bit of an uptick prior to the 13th December (the date the 4 week paid stand down for Medical & Education workers will end), and likewise around the 31st of December for the hospo industry, police etc. Hopefully these people can't rince and repeat and get more paid stand-down then their second dose is mandated.

Northland has been making big inroads. That our worst preforming DHB for vaccination 87% of eligible with their first dose, is amazing in my book.

quickymart

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#2829835 10-Dec-2021 10:49

Reefton isn't really a tourist spot though, so I don't imagine hundreds of Aucklanders will be visiting.

If you think I'm being horrible about the place, I'm not - just it's more of a passing-through town as opposed to a let's-stop-for-a-week town. I've been there hundreds of times.

mudguard

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#2829841 10-Dec-2021 11:01

quickymart:

Reefton isn't really a tourist spot though, so I don't imagine hundreds of Aucklanders will be visiting.

If you think I'm being horrible about the place, I'm not - just it's more of a passing-through town as opposed to a let's-stop-for-a-week town. I've been there hundreds of times.

I do enjoy a breakfast there once a month. I wonder if the cafe I like has been affected?

I know what you all mean by adversarial. My partner won't get the vaccine, we don't really talk about it anymore. I think she's relying on rapid tests to allow her to travel. The issue is, we can't really plan anything this way. We might book flights, and we are lucky enough to get flexi flights normally, but what if the rapid test comes back positive, or a false positive. We have to cancel our plans. So the reality is we won't be able to make any, it's not necessarily postponing the flight, but letting friends down etc, by saying we can't make it at virtually no notice.

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