I cannot see any mental images, I have aphantasia

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#2535126 5-Aug-2020 13:27

LostBoyNZ:

@rb99 Wow, but if you close each eye, you still see a 2D image from each eye? It'd be interesting too if you saw things in your mind in 3D but physically with your eyes only in 2D, but it might be one of the cases where it's better you don't.

Both eyes work reasonably, I just don't combine them into a 3D image with depth. So closing one eye or the other just gives a slightly different viewpoint. 3D TV does nothing for me. People also moan about my driving, but I haven't hit anything yet (been hit, but no actual hitting touch wood).

Guess it doesn't help with the minds eye thing, especially the fancy stuff some can do. No trouble with reading fiction though.

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mrdrifter

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#2535160 5-Aug-2020 14:12

I love reading, both written and audio books and that is like having full live action show running in my mind.

I'm trying to imagine seeing nothing when visualising and it's really difficult, intellectually I get it, but it seems like it would leave a gap. If you try to talk around in the dark/with eyes closed, can you navigate well?

I imagine it could lend itself to meditation techniques working quite well.

trig42

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#2535226 5-Aug-2020 15:04

rb99:

LostBoyNZ:

@rb99 Wow, but if you close each eye, you still see a 2D image from each eye? It'd be interesting too if you saw things in your mind in 3D but physically with your eyes only in 2D, but it might be one of the cases where it's better you don't.

Both eyes work reasonably, I just don't combine them into a 3D image with depth. So closing one eye or the other just gives a slightly different viewpoint. 3D TV does nothing for me. People also moan about my driving, but I haven't hit anything yet (been hit, but no actual hitting touch wood).

Guess it doesn't help with the minds eye thing, especially the fancy stuff some can do. No trouble with reading fiction though.

I have that - both my eyes work reasonably well, but I do not have binocular vision (lazy eye). If I try really hard, I can see the 3D effect on a 3D TV, but it is quite tiring. I did see an IMAX 3D movie (might have been Star Wars Ep 8) and it worked OK, maybe because of the sheer size of the screen.

Makes ball sports hard, and you have to be careful when pouring drinks when sitting down/at eye level (no issue when looking from above).

As for visualising, I see the apple as 1, but I could never draw it. I can visualise what something I'm making should look like (be it DIY or cooking etc.) and it (mostly) never looks as good.

Hammerer

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#2535237 5-Aug-2020 15:17

LostBoyNZ:

I thought it was so interesting (and I must admit kind of depressing) because I never knew people actually see things in their mind. When people talk about visualising things, I always just assumed they were thinking about the idea. Like if I think of my wife for example, I can think her hair style, her clothes and such, but I don't actually 'see' them.

Yes, it is interesting. I live with a friend who has no ability to think spatially - psychological test results were 0% which might have been the percentile. So when she wants to rearrange furniture, she has to physically move it to see if it will fit. She has no sense of direction or location. I'm at the other extreme with a good memory so visual spatial routes and remember roads and routes that I return to more than 20 years later.

How do we interpret what other people are telling us? I've seen many examples of misunderstandings that arise from people not being able to share the same idea because they don't have a shared experience. That happens a lot in historical accounts where an earlier experience can only be imagined.

I often wonder when people say that they are thinking about "nothing", that nothing is in their mind. They tell me that they mean that they are literally not thinking about anything but I just can't imagine it. When I think about nothing, I am thinking about something. I can't seem to stop thinking about something. I am only thinking about nothing while I am sleep or unconscious.

I see images/snapshots in my mind like slides in a slideshow. They just appear although they usually only take up a small part of my field of vision. They can also be moving images but snapshots are more normal.

If I am using my eyesight to concentrate on something then I usually won't see anything in my mind apart from what I am seeing with my eyes. I can consciously focus on both types of images but it is more normal to focus on one rather than both.

If I think about "what I did last night" then I see an image of what I saw while watching TV last night and I hear the phrase "watched TV" in my mind. I guess that is a type of inner dialogue which also pops up unbidden.

If I try to think of a tangible object/event then the picture usually appears before the word which often appears in written form as well. So when I think of an "apple" then I see an image of an apple. But I can also see the word "apple" somewhat like a child's language primer or ABC book.

mudguard

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#2535240 5-Aug-2020 15:22

This is an interesting discussion. So how does this affect memory or knowing things? Say take two supercars from when I was growing up, Ferrari F40 and Porsche 959. If you know what these cars are, can you not visualize them in your head but if you saw one, you could say, oh that's an F40?

Your Caltex example, I wonder if it's a word or a logo thing, could you describe the particular Caltex to someone else if they asked? Like oh, forecourt on the right, about six pumps, big glass windows down one side etc?

rb99

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#2535251 5-Aug-2020 15:44

Was always rubbish at ball sports. Watch tennis ball approaching, swing elegantly at the ball, ball carries straight on with a contemptuous look, ditto, table tennis - good at serving but if they hit it back, well...

Read somewhere once about a 2D type who went to a 3D movie and came out a 3D person. Why is its always other people ?

Just trying to visualise a 959, I don't think I see anything. I can imagine the outline, can trace its exaggerated shape, but nothing seems remotely visual. Still, survived so far.

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.” -John Kenneth Galbraith

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LostBoyNZ

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#2535326 5-Aug-2020 16:31

@olivernz Your Mum remembers the ‘bad’ things you did 40 years ago, right down to the t-shirt you wore? Wow, and that’s some memory she has. I honestly don’t think I could remember what T-shirt I was wearing a couple of days ago. Not that I think that’s a memory issue, just I suppose my brain is quick to discard it as unuseful information. And that leaves more room for other things in my brain, such as random Simpsons and South Park references :P

@rb99 Not that I’ve tried driving with one eye shut haha, but I don’t see why it would be extermely difficult in 2D. Harder I bet sure, but VR and 3D TVs aside, videogame driving is 2D for example. I can’t imagine how watching a 3D movie converted someone from only seeing in 2D to 3D, it was a sort of training session for the brain maybe, but very interesting still.

@trig42 That makes sense about it being difficult to pour drinks without seeing it from above yes. That’s ok about the cooking, if I take what’s on the box as a visualisation of what it should look like, my cooking never looks as good :P

@mrdrifter If I try to walk around in the dark / with eyes closed I don’t do well haha. I can kind of move around based on footsteps without really actively thinking about footsteps, but that only really works up to a few steps. You’re trying to imagine what it’s like to not see anything? It sounds like when I try to think about how the universe is expanding and what’s beyond the edge of the universe (that’s a whole different topic). I must admit I’ve never actually tried meditation.

@Hammerer Very interesting about your friend who can’t tell if furniture will fit into a space until she physically tries to move it there. I guess while I can’t picture what the furniture would look like in a different arrangement until I physically move it like that, I’m lucky I can determine if something will fit or not.

Agreed on the idea of thinking nothing, as far as I know, I’m always thinking something. Less so when I’m doing things like watching a movie or playing a game maybe, but I’m pretty sure there’s always something going on up there.

That’s so interesting you can see a word in your vision, that must make spelling bees easier! Out of interest to anyone else who reads this, is seeing the word in your vision a common thing?

@mudguard How does it affect my memory or knowing things? Like recognising a type of car? Mmm good question. With my Caltex example (for anyone reading, that’s where I said I navigate driving by using landmarks to remember where to turn when possible), taking the logo & name out of it for a moment, I can remember the idea that Caltex has those particular colours, and if I’ve seen an imagine of it (Google Street View for example) I might remember facts about it, like a big glass window down one side. But I’m totally just remembering the idea of a glass window, not what it looks like.

If it’s a less obvious building, it might be that I remember it has an very high pointy roof and a green fence or something random like that, but again just the ideas of that, not the image. Perhaps similar to the way I assume computer based image recognition works, based on rules. So I could certainly never remember what a Ferrari F40 is based on seeing one, but if I remember the ‘rules’ of what makes it a Ferrari F40 I could yes :) If there’s only subtle differences between that and a similar car though, I think I’d fail.

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Hammerer

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#2535347 5-Aug-2020 16:57

What about visualising colours? Does aphantasia affect this ability. A colour is one of the simplest forms of mental imagery but I know that many people can't colour match very well because they can't remember easily.

And what about visualising shapes, like a square?

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#2535391 5-Aug-2020 17:18

Fascinating! I read this thread last night thinking that I would learn something about other people. But reading up on aphantasia has made me realise I might possibly sit on the end of the spectrum closer to having no mental images...! It's not an complete absence for me. But I don't see mental images all the time and when I do it's often a very fade unsaturated (i.e. very faint colours to the point it looks almost grey/white) image with only general outlines. Kind of like a really bad OHP with EOL bulbs.

I think like many I've always thought how my mental imaging works is like how most other people do it... I was fairly surprised that being able to see in colour etc is more common than I think.

Reading the Facebook post (linked earlier in this thread I believe) had me realising my experience is remarkably similar in parts.

One example is picturing people. I have never been able to do this well. I struggle for example to recall what color hair people had. I always thought people just kept an inventory in their head (e.g. Paul=brown, Sally=blonde). It's literally only occured to me last night that people can actually picture the actual people in their head and derive their answer that way.

The other example in that Facebook post was struggling to recall events. This is another thing I struggle with. I can deal with the main facts just fine but the details are beyond me. My friends often recall events from years ago that I can only remember in parts, but they can retell in much more detail. I am considered a terrible story teller... Kind of makes sense now.

Very interesting indeed... Will be having a chat to friends over the next while to see how they perceive things mentally!

LostBoyNZ

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#2535453 5-Aug-2020 19:50

@Hammerer Good question, I can't see colours in my mind or shapes. For example even if I'm holding a colour sheet and look at a wall, I can't imagine what that wall will look like in that colour. Likewise for shapes, I can't picture them, but rather I imagine them based on the rules, such as I know a square will have four sides of equal length. I don't actively think about the fact I'm thinking about the rules of the shape, but yeah I can't see any in my mind.

@KiwiSurfer It sounds like you'd be #3 or #4 on that 'imagine an apple' scale I posted here . That's really interesting you mentioned you struggle to recall what colour hair people had. I can't imagine a colour, but I have a good memory for the colour of things. Just tonight we were watching an anime, Made In Abyss and I recognised a characters voice as a purple haired girl from an anime years ago, Clannad. After a couple of minutes I remembered the characters name, Kyou. But I just thought it was interesting I remembered the character's hair colour first. No mental image of her though haha. I think it's the same with people I know, but while I can't see the colour I guess I remember it kind of like someone remembers a fact. Like you say, kind of an inventory in my head of this person has this colour. All without actively thinking about it of course, but yeah I think that's how it is for me at least.

Mmm recalling events, personally I think it's hard to know I'm good or bad at that, but no one has complained. I'm not a great story teller but I always kind of put that down to awkardness haha. I've always thought it must be amazing to have a photographic memory, if that exists, though, and to see the details. Not realising at the time most people have something closer to that.

It'll be interesting to hear how your chat goes with friends, and how varied they are :)

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#2535456 5-Aug-2020 19:58

I think I might have it as well. I have never really thought about it before, I can design 3d images in my head but I don't see the image I just know what it is going to look like and I can sketch it out later.

If I close my eyes I can not bringup images beyond abstract flashes of light. Thinking about it that has always been the case. When I picture something I don't see it I kind of just know it.

However I love fiction, I have a great sense of direction (almost always know which direction is north by imaging I am in my childhood room I can feel were north is), and I could sit down and draw a map of my local area.

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#2535465 5-Aug-2020 20:14

LostBoyNZ:
GSManiac: Wow, I wish I'd seen that already. But absolutely I'm number 5. For anyone who doesn't click the link, it's "This is still blowing my mind lol Close your eyes and imagine an apple. What do you see?"

isn’t this normal? I mean I can’t literally switch off my vision and suddenly have an apple floating in front of my eyes but I can imagine an apple. I certainly can’t enter into a dream like vision of objects.

One trick I’ve learned to help put me to sleep is to remember and to put myself back into a beach down south with the waves gently crashing on the pebbled shore.

You're not on Atlantis anymore, Duncan Idaho.

Fred99

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#2535499 5-Aug-2020 21:44

Hammerer:

What about visualising colours? Does aphantasia affect this ability. A colour is one of the simplest forms of mental imagery but I know that many people can't colour match very well because they can't remember easily.

And what about visualising shapes, like a square?

We've got a built-in "auto colour balance" and "auto exposure" mechanisms - so nobody can remember colours as they are, only maybe what they "thought" they saw.

This is why people who obsess about "calibrating" colour on their TVs are dreaming. (OTOH I obsess about colour calibration between two different outputs devices - ie a monitor and a print - but that's a different kettle of fish)

Example - squares A and B are the same colour:

Edit to add an even better example- the balls in this image are all the same colour:

gzt

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#2535504 5-Aug-2020 23:09

Are some of you are less easily fooled at live magic shows?

tanivula

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#2535838 6-Aug-2020 15:19

Wow, so this has got me thinking. And after a chat with the better half, it turns out we're both in the aphantasic camp. Thanks @LostBoyNZ - TIL, well yesterday...

OMG @Fred99 those pictures are crazy. I seriously thought you were trying to have us on, but proof 1 and proof 2. (thanks to google)

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