2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2506329 17-Jun-2020 10:39

I don't understand the release conditions, They were to go down to wellington in a private car and have contact with only one other person. Yeah right like that is going to happen, You cannot tell me they would go to a funeral and only have contact with only one person its just not plausible. Best intentions or not you will come into contact with other people.

I personally don't think it was a mistake as they are saying but complete negligence with so much at stake.

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tehgerbil

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#2506336 17-Jun-2020 11:01

wellygary:

kiwifidget:

I would like to see these 2 women front up and apologise to the country for putting themselves ahead of the 5 million.

Why,!! What did they do wrong.....

Personally, and respectfully disagree. There is a current world-wide pandemic involving a virus that's killed hundreds of thousands world-wide.

They were from a country that up until recently relied on herd immunity which purposefully allowed those with the virus to mingle with healthy people.

They were coming to a country that has not had any trace of the virus for over three weeks, and had to pass through several cities that are also known to host the virus as well.

They purposely chose to travel, knowing this would place themselves in proximity with those carrying the virus, and thus were practically guaranteed to come in contact with an infected person. PPE is NOT infallible.

There's a very strong moral argument that their actions were that of arrogance and stupidity.

The system failed them and us, however there was multiple opportunities for them to take the initiative and ask to get tested.

I mean for goodness sake, one openly admitted to having COVID symptoms and passed it off as 'existing condition'. Their actions were selfish and display contempt towards the efforts to date to eradicate and control the virus in our country.

This ALL could have been avoided if they'd pulled finger and insisted they were tested before they traveled.

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#2506340 17-Jun-2020 11:06

Purely personally:

I do not regard a funeral as sufficient grounds to bend the rules in a case such as people flying in from a widely infected location
Where is their sense of personal responsibility outwith any legal or regulatory requirement? Surely any sense of personal responsibility would have resulted in them opting to remain where they were and make arrangements to attend any funeral remotely?
There is, somewhere, a massive level of incompetence that should result in immediate dismissal

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#2506341 17-Jun-2020 11:10

Your not wrong but time was of the essence. I think the mother was alive, but passed suddenly, making time more an issue. They should have been tested before leaving quarantine, which is what happens and declined due to symptoms, but both did not occur and someone released them when they should not have. Thats what we need to find out. Why and why, and who made the decision? Dr A had alreday authorised the release, but thats subject to exit border checks that seemed not to occur

Remeber, on 8 June, funerals with many people are allowed. The sisters did nothing wrong. In fact, apart from the border release point it was highly managed. They should have unfortunately failed the border exit, but someone let them through, we need to know why

MikeB4

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#2506342 17-Jun-2020 11:10

The system failed the two women concerned, those who attended the funeral, those that have had subsequent collateral contact and all New Zealanders. The whole border management has been an abject failure that can be circumvented at will and worth. There needs to be accountability.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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#2506382 17-Jun-2020 11:15

MikeB4:

The system failed the two women concerned, those who attended the funeral, those that have had subsequent collateral contact and all New Zealanders. The whole border management has been an abject failure that can be circumvented at will and worth. There needs to be accountability.

Fair enough

If so, the person(s) at the exit point go first, they were supposed to test and supposed to check symptoms, both failed

If there was apparently no exit process as one here suggests then Dr A and the Minister also go. If there are sufficient processes and checks in place but one staff member failed (to test and to deny based on symptoms), then what?

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#2506383 17-Jun-2020 11:15

dejadeadnz:

It's not my place to detail what my wife has told me about her experiences have been in terms of her hospital's dealings/coorddination with the MoH on COVID (she's on her hospital's emergency management team) but let's just say I am pretty alarmed by what I was told and what they say about the character of some of the bureaucrats at MoH.

I've worked 10+ years at 2 DHBs, but no longer, so I'm free of any backlash. Having left before covid-19, I can't comment on that, but generally speaking agree with whatever your wife told you. The MoH seemed inept and clumsy at every level I dealt with, and operated in its own ivory tower, careless and ignorant of what happened at DHBs. I think it's telling that David Clark set up his separate expert advisory group to provide him with advice that he should have been getting from his Ministry. MoH's IT systems and people are somewhere back in the 1990s, I think.

As an example, the last project I worked on was for the National Bowel Screening Programme. Since the NBSP interacts with people by snail-mail, there is a need to get up-to-date addresses for people. There was an expectation that the DHB would have up-to-date addresses, despite DHBs only getting address updates when someone actually presents at the DHB. The PHO *does* have the information, but the idea of asking the PHO directly seemed impossible for the MoH to comprehend. The MoH itself hosts the National Health Index, which includes all patient names and addresses, and is updated by the DHBs, so is as up-to-date as any DHB's data, but that couldn't be used either. There was no distributed access to a central database; instead Excel spreadsheets were transferred daily by SFTP between mailbox directories hosted at the MoH. So a request for an up-to-date address would go from the NBSP call/mail centre to the MoH by SFTP, then to the DHB by SFTP (the MoH suggested using FileZilla, I could at least automate this step), where a nurse would get it, extract the spreadsheet, forward the request to the PHO by email, and then the reply would come back following the same tortuous path. Finally, someone at the call centre would transcribe the address into their database.

Rikkitic

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#2506384 17-Jun-2020 11:16

Fred99:

They're rituals all humans celebrate - differently as it's subject to customs, religion, and laws (ie not releasing bodies for immediate burial etc where post-mortem is required - if that doesn't meet religious beliefs and custom, then tough bananas).

Even animals grieve - it's not unique to humans - thus probably coded into us, not something we learn.

As far as I know, animals don't attend funerals, though elephants have been known to gather. Grief is a private matter. Funerals are celebrations of the life of the deceased. Those struck with grief can usually rely on a small number of close family members for support. They don't need a church-full of acquaintances and passers-by.

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#2506386 17-Jun-2020 11:17

wellygary:

What did they do wrong.....

The part where knowing they came from a pandemic hotspot and yet failed to disclose/ask for testing despite "mild symptoms" is a good starting point.

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#2506414 17-Jun-2020 11:31

JaseNZ:

Was reading about this a few weeks back very interesting stuff. They don't sniff out the virus as per say but the change in scent in the armpits that occurs when the virus is present. I liked the bit where one dog indicated positive one of the people that had been tested negative. When they retested the person they found they were positive. Friken dogs man amazing animals.

Saw a program about a woman who could sniff out Parkinsons. She first smelt it in her husband as a musty smell. She was tested on a group of IIRC 20 people, 10 with and 10 without. She got 95% right, with one false positive. Except that subsequently that person was tested and turned out to have Parkinsons. So it's not just dogs.

MikeB4

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#2506415 17-Jun-2020 11:32

@Rikkitic there are vast cultural differences regarding funerals, grief and celebrations that MUST be taken into account. One cannot dictate how others should deal with grief.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

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MikeB4

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#2506422 17-Jun-2020 11:41

frankv:

Saw a program about a woman who could sniff out Parkinsons. She first smelt it in her husband as a musty smell. She was tested on a group of IIRC 20 people, 10 with and 10 without. She got 95% right, with one false positive. Except that subsequently that person was tested and turned out to have Parkinsons. So it's not just dogs.

It is interesting how animals react. My son had a Labrador that when we visited would come out very excited and jump up on my wife but would come up to me excited but never jumped. When I walked her on the lead she would never pull on me. When the Labrador would come up to say hello when I was sitting it would do it very gently. Often when I dropped something she would pick it up, It is like she new I had a lot of pain.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

sittingduckz

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#2506423 17-Jun-2020 11:44

Swabbing should be mandatory at the border entry. I think due to the increased powers at border entry points this could easily be enforced.

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#2506425 17-Jun-2020 11:47

While I agree the MoH stuffed up badly in what was a constantly changing environment I wish comentators would get the “going to a funeral” bit correct.

As Dr A stated the pair were going to visit a dying relative who died before they were out of quarantine. The funeral was to be delayed till the pair were out of quarantine and were wrongly released to stay with deceased partner in self isolation until then Now they are infected the funeral will be delayed till they can be deemed recovered which may be some time. At no time were they going to attend a funeral before 14 days quarantine had passed.

The Hamilton pair seem to be a worse case if they actually attended an event with multiple people.

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#2506431 17-Jun-2020 11:51

kiwifidget:
“It is logical. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one.” - Spock and Kirk

I would like to see these 2 women front up and apologise to the country for putting themselves ahead of the 5 million.

Yes, I've slept on it, and I'm still mad.

I think the sisters were just following instructions given by... Nobody knows (I thought they were not asked if they had symptoms? Isn't that why they have changed the questions or training staff how to ask the questions? I read something to that effect yesterday.)

Everywhere I read says the symptoms were discovered "in retrospect" Whatever that means.

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