2019 Novel Coronavirus Covid-19 Discussion

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#2506614 17-Jun-2020 13:54

FineWine:

Stuff just popped up and stated that "At this point, there are 320 identified close contacts" with the Travelling Wellington pair.

Plane passengers and quarantine facility. All will be contacted by end of today

rugrat

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#2506615 17-Jun-2020 13:54

FineWine:

Stuff just popped up and stated that "At this point, there are 320 identified close contacts" with the Travelling Wellington pair.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/121855818/coronavirus-border-bungle-represents-unacceptable-failure--prime-minister

frankv

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#2506618 17-Jun-2020 13:56

tdgeek:

I really cant see a nurse forgetting exit checks. I know from the video it was last minute, unsure why, so I figure, the odds were super low, but we will manage these travel arrangements just in case. But then again Im sure I read that they funeral was delayed, so why the rush?

Quite probably the nurse in Auckland didn't forget anything... one day the two women were in the hotel, still expected to be there for another week, so no tests were due; next day they were gone.

My understanding is that the women traveled to NZ to attend the funeral, but the (I assume) parent survived longer than expected. So they applied for compassionate leave to see the parent before they died. Maybe the parent was still alive at the time of release from managed isolation, hence the rush. Anyway, the parent has now died. Now, the funeral is delayed until the women come out of quarantine.

kobiak

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#2506619 17-Jun-2020 13:58

holy moses. who was that screaming journalist, who JA ignored for the good 10 mins of QAs... she annoyed hell out of me!

I'm happy to see 14 days quarantine is getting a review, and it's also good that new cases occurred sooner, government has a chance to review the border control now. soonish travel bubbles would be allowed, and we need all the measures in place!

helping others at evgenyk.nz

tdgeek

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#2506620 17-Jun-2020 14:00

MikeB4:

tdgeek:

MoH is running this project, Dr A runs MoH, Dr C is Minister of Health, more overseeing at best. If it came down to it, Dr A goes or both go. I dont support either going until I know who signed the sisters to go

PM says Dr A will assess the causes and what/who caused them

In a Westminster style of Parliament as in NZ the Minister is ultimately responsible.

Agree, so he can certainly go if required. Then the part of the Ministry that runs this project will also have to go as failing in the role, and Dr Clark as Minisiter of that role. Clark for all his faults isnt running this, MoH is. If they fail Dr A goes , and possible Dr C as well, but you cant have it the other way round. If the Chairman allowed a CEO to ruin a company, both go. You did say that Dr A needs to go, which is fair comment

I believe the Ombudsman is now involved? Id prefer to know the cause, than all of us speculate and blame

tdgeek

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#2506621 17-Jun-2020 14:02

kobiak:

holy moses. who was that screaming journalist, who JA ignored for the good 10 mins of QAs... she annoyed hell out of me!

I'm happy to see 14 days quarantine is getting a review, and it's also good that new cases occurred sooner, government has a chance to review the border control now. soonish travel bubbles would be allowed, and we need all the measures in place!

Agree. Its a great pity but there is value in this, while we can afford it.

mattwnz

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#2506622 17-Jun-2020 14:04

kobiak:

holy moses. who was that screaming journalist, who JA ignored for the good 10 mins of QAs... she annoyed hell out of me!

I'm happy to see 14 days quarantine is getting a review, and it's also good that new cases occurred sooner, government has a chance to review the border control now. soonish travel bubbles would be allowed, and we need all the measures in place!

We shouldn't need errors to find these holes in the system. It should have all been fully stress tested. It is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff.

Covid will get back in through these types of holes. Our border controls need to be vigorous. Good luck for a trans tasman bubble anytime soon IMO, because this will make the public very cautious.

New Zealand deserved far better than this from our officials, after all the sacrifices we have made to get rid of the virus, and keep it at the border.

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MikeB4

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#2506623 17-Jun-2020 14:05

tdgeek:

Agree, so he can certainly go if required. Then the part of the Ministry that runs this project will also have to go as failing in the role, and Dr Clark as Minisiter of that role. Clark for all his faults isnt running this, MoH is. If they fail Dr A goes , and possible Dr C as well, but you cant have it the other way round. If the Chairman allowed a CEO to ruin a company, both go. You did say that Dr A needs to go, which is fair comment

I believe the Ombudsman is now involved? Id prefer to know the cause, than all of us speculate and blame

You need to understand the Westminster system, Ministerial responsibility and the delegated authority under which Civil Servants work. The bottom line is Minister Clark is responsible.

FineWine

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#2506624 17-Jun-2020 14:06

MikeB4:

The system failed the two women concerned, those who attended the funeral, those that have had subsequent collateral contact and all New Zealanders. The whole border management has been an abject failure that can be circumvented at will and worth. There needs to be accountability.

The system did not fail the two women concerned. There own selfishness failed the system.

concordnz:

The first 'failure' is on the part of the two women & lack of personal responsibility.

They knowingly traveled from a known Hotspot - & had symptoms. (Which they tried 'passing off' claiming they were caused by a preexisting condition.)

An intelligent person (or one who cared about 'living people' & the financial/livelyhood cost to society this virus had caused) - would have made the personal decision NOT to leave quarantine & would NOT have even applied for an exemption. (Knowing they had symptoms)

Personal responsibility/choices comes first.

They clearly don't care about all the suffering and economic chaos we have paid as individuals/a country. - putting their so called 'needs' ahead of the very evident risks to NZ society/country.

In my opinion - they do owe us an apology!

I agree totally with all the concordnz has said.

Trouble is society has become such a 'Me Me Me all about Me'. People just do not want to take responsibility for their own actions or inactions. They bury their heads in their iDevices and are always quick to criticise others for their actions or inactions not realising they are just as at fault.

Question: will this stop the people that say we should open up our borders - I do not think so. More and More studies are showing that the asymptomatic carriers are our biggest problem and worry. They are spreading it whilst asymptomatic. (Research has shown that people become infectious before they start feeling sick, during that presymptomatic period) But other studies show that this is rare.

So lets ALL just be cautious and live on the safe side of life not the wild side ❗️❗️

EDIT: wrong referencing of quote ID's - apologises to @concordnz and @MikeB4

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

concordnz

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#2506625 17-Jun-2020 14:09

freitasm:
The PM just put the Defence Force to take care of quarantine.

Good!
At least they (should be) good at developing a strict system/process - and enforcing it in a regimented way, so there is little chance of mistakes and loopholes.
(& there should be clear accountability up the ranks)

An excellent use of our armed forces in the current situation - which has been far too 'whishy washy' up until this point.

In a way I'm glad this happened now & not when we first opened a bubble (with anywhere) with 10,000 daily flying... It means we can learn and get it right with less 'fallout risk'

I still believe people need to take responsibility for their own actions first and foremost, & if you are sick/any symptoms DON'T TRAVEL!

kobiak

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#2506626 17-Jun-2020 14:12

mattwnz:

We shouldn't need errors to find these holes in the system. It should have all been fully stress tested. It is ambulance at the bottom of the cliff stuff.

Covid will get back in through these types of holes. Our border controls need to be vigorous. Good luck for a trans tasman bubble anytime soon IMO, because this will make the public very cautious.

New Zealand deserved far better than this from our officials, after all the sacrifices we have made to get rid of the virus, and keep it at the border.

as an IT person, how many bugs/issues did you come across after a new system/build release ?

it's pretty much the same on the larger scale. where human decision is involved, there always will be a potential issue.

Decision was made by human to get them out of the isolation premises and that person made that decision on the information available.

IMO. now the process of getting that information available and the details would be reviewed.

helping others at evgenyk.nz

tdgeek

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#2506628 17-Jun-2020 14:13

MikeB4:

You need to understand the Westminster system, Ministerial responsibility and the delegated authority under which Civil Servants work. The bottom line is Minister Clark is responsible.

Yes and thats fine. No issue. For the sake of argument, let's say Dr A admitted he took a risk with this case, so he goes. Lets say Dr C was a wonderful Minister. Do we waste a sacrificial lamb? If so the W system is a waste of space

PM says Dr Clark is not the cause, thats clear.

It may well be that Dr A is the cause, if he offered his resignation it would not be accepted

That is the reality IMHO, common sense prevails.

mattwnz

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#2506629 17-Jun-2020 14:13

concordnz:
freitasm:

The PM just put the Defence Force to take care of quarantine.

Good!
At least they (should be) good at developing a strict system/process - and enforcing it in a regimented way, so there is little chance of mistakes and loopholes.
(& there should be clear accountability up the ranks)

An excellent use of our armed forces in the current situation - which has been far too 'whishy washy' up until this point.

In a way I'm glad this happened now & not when we first opened a bubble (with anywhere) with 10,000 daily flying... It means we can learn and get it right with less 'fallout risk'

I still believe people need to take responsibility for their own actions first and foremost, & if you are sick/any symptoms DON'T TRAVEL!

It also makes sense in the fact that we need to defend our border against this virus, which is the countries number one enemy at the moment.

frankv

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#2506630 17-Jun-2020 14:16

tdgeek:

FineWine:

Stuff just popped up and stated that "At this point, there are 320 identified close contacts" with the Travelling Wellington pair.

Plane passengers and quarantine facility. All will be contacted by end of today

As I just found out, there's a difference between quarantine and managed isolation. (I'd often used quarantine when I should have used managed isolation.

Quarantine is for people with symptoms, or a positive test, and you're not allowed to leave your room. Managed isolation is for people arriving from overseas without symptoms, and allows you to go out for a (contact-free) walk, and makes you eligible for exemptions.

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-current-situation/covid-19-border-controls/covid-19-managed-isolation-and-quarantine

So these women were in managed isolation, despite one of them having symptoms.

Interesting also, that what Landau, the Avatar producer, described (not allowed to leave his room) was quarantine, whereas the Avatar crew should have been in managed isolation (being symptom-free), which was what other people have described.

MikeB4

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#2506671 17-Jun-2020 14:22

tdgeek:

Yes and thats fine. No issue. For the sake of argument, let's say Dr A admitted he took a risk with this case, so he goes. Lets say Dr C was a wonderful Minister. Do we waste a sacrificial lamb? If so the W system is a waste of space

PM says Dr Clark is not the cause, thats clear.

It may well be that Dr A is the cause, if he offered his resignation it would not be accepted

That is the reality IMHO, common sense prevails.

The Minister has effectively been relieved of command if that does not show that he is responsible what would in your eyes? Level One, Border entry control and isolation control has been a flustercluck.

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