EVs, Hybrids, PHEV - what to do?!

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › EVs, Hybrids, PHEV - what to do?!

ZombieJohn

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#302498 27-Nov-2022 22:27

Hi Folks.

Here I am using your collective brain power because I'm at a loss as to what to do regarding our next vehicle.

For context, we live in Whangarei and I will typically drive to Auckland once a fortnight (but can be once a week at times) and my wife up north once a week (normally an hour to an hour and a half). The rest of the time around town. We currently own a 2013 Mazda atenza Diesel wagon. It is absolutely fantastic but we need a second car. (And the prices at the pump are also hurting).

Last bit of context; We have 2 large dogs and 2 small kids.

We are able to access the EV home loan from ASB but don't feel comfortable spending crazy money on a vehicle. Our brain tells us the 15k to 25k is a smart decision. 50k for the Atto just seems beyond what we should be spending.

So... Given the huge amount of context what would you do? I have looked at the atto3, mg Ev, leaf, outlander phev, and others. To be honest, the Toyota corolla hybrid wagon seems like it might be winning the proverbial race.

Thanks all!

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#3002276 27-Nov-2022 22:37

Hybrid's lack power IMO. They struggle climbing hills, and you really must floor it to overtake other cars on passing lanes. PHEV or EV is where it's at. MG EV base variant at $42k after subsidy or BYD Atto 3 LR version $52k after subsidy are good buy.

Do whatever you want to do man.

michaelmurfy

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#3002277 27-Nov-2022 22:56

I'm personally a Tesla owner and would never go back to an ICE car. I absolutely love it. I personally went with the Tesla due to me doing quite a bit of driving (23,000km since March) along with doing at-least something to help combat climate change and also save a tonne of money ($120/wk in Petrol down to $5/wk in Electricity).

The thing you've got to look at with buying an EV is the fact you're no-longer chained to oil companies. There is also less that can go wrong with them, no yearly servicing, no oil changes and again no filling up at the petrol pump.

Over a number of years the BYD Atto for example will indeed pay for itself and you'll find joy in going for a drive to a Cafe out of town for example and just visiting new places. Changing infrastructure around NZ is getting better too.

A change on home electricity on average will cost around ~$3 but will give you close to 300km-400km range of straight driving.

Lastly, there is just massive joy with driving an EV. Instant torque and acceleration and knowing you're not going to be affected by petrol pricing going forward.

I am bias being an EV owner myself but honestly take the MG and the Atto out for a test drive and join up on the Facebook groups too. Work out your yearly maintenance and petrol costs and factor those in to your decision along with having a new, more reliable car in the process. You will not at all regret owning one.

The thing with Hybrids is more can go wrong - you've got a high voltage system combined with a petrol engine that requires more servicing and they're gutless too. PHEV's are OK but again you've still got the maintenance on the engine and with both options you're still a slave to oil companies too.

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Hammerer

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#3002285 28-Nov-2022 02:47

ZombieJohn:

So... Given the huge amount of context what would you do?

You give some context but nowhere near enough to narrow down the best options for you. There are so many vehicle options that you would benefit from being clear about your goals and priorities.

Goals are about what you are aiming for in your life in the longer term. Consider which goals might impact your vehicle purchase such as:
Financial - pay off mortgage is likely when have children, or when older free up funds to support other family members into houses, and so on
Environmental - minimise your carbon footprint
etc

Priorities are about what is more important in the present. You should have some specific priorities to assist with selecting a vehicle such as:
Space - length of cabin given two kids and two dogs; probably hatchback/wagon given dogs
Safety - given kids and dogs sharing the cabin
Fuel economy - as you mentioned
Style - not mentioned
etc

As an example, my last vehicle purchase was easy because we were clear on what we needed before we started looking. Our lifestyle and financial goals meant we would look at compact, but not small/tiny, cars for under $30k which meant buying used. A good buying point being around the end of the 5 year warranty because regular maintenance is more likely to be completed and documented.

We prioritised safety and space (leg room and headroom) which eliminated many vehicles just by sitting in the back seats. We saw a lot of models that were attractive to us but only two models were suitable for our goals and priorities.

Batman

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#3002337 28-Nov-2022 07:13

i tested numerous Hybrids and PHEV and found that they were not best of both worlds, rather worst of both worlds - underpowered ICE underpowered electric motor and undercapacity battery. but everyone's need for POWER is different. Battery Capacity requirements different for everyone.

i have an ICE and a nissan Leaf and it's cheaper to buy and maintain than buying an EV or hybrid

my next car will be an EV but haven't found the right one, the one I like costs over 100k ...

meanwhile my Nissan Leaf for the cost of a bicycle is saving me $1000 every month

EVs won't save too much if you drive long distance a lot because charger prices are likely to go up as capitalists milk your $, but currently you still save, but the trajectory of these charger prices is UP

Batman

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#3002339 28-Nov-2022 07:16

ZombieJohn:

So... Given the huge amount of context what would you do? I have looked at the atto3, mg Ev, leaf, outlander phev, and others. To be honest, the Toyota corolla hybrid wagon seems like it might be winning the proverbial race.

not for me but i have heard very good things about the Toyota Corolla hybrid. they drive all over the country and it uses next to no fuel. there's a computer that trains you how to drive to make the most of the hybrid.

gzt

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#3002340 28-Nov-2022 07:36

ZombieJohn: Toyota corolla hybrid wagon

I think these are not available in NZ until 2023. Did they give you a price indication?

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MikeB4

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#3002463 28-Nov-2022 10:03

billgates:

Hybrid's lack power IMO. They struggle climbing hills, and you really must floor it to overtake other cars on passing lanes. PHEV or EV is where it's at. MG EV base variant at $42k after subsidy or BYD Atto 3 LR version $52k after subsidy are good buy.

I disagree with your statement that Hybrids lack power. We have owned a current series Toyota RAV4 Hybrid and currently own a 2022 Mitsubishi Eclipse Cross PHEV. They definitely do not struggle up hill and we travel over the Remutaka Hill and Transmission Gully both of which have very steep inclines. We have also towed caravans and boats with these around the country without issue and tackle hills with ease. Never have to "floor it" to overtake on passing lanes.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

shk292

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#3002466 28-Nov-2022 10:11

gzt:
ZombieJohn: Toyota corolla hybrid wagon

I think these are not available in NZ until 2023. Did they give you a price indication?

There are currently 362 corolla hybrid wagons on Trademe. It's getting difficult to buy a reasonably recent corolla wagon that isn't a hybrid

CrazyM

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#3002469 28-Nov-2022 10:23

Just be aware that when people generalise about Hybrid, PHEV, EV, ICE they are just that, generalisations. Will totally depend on the specific vehicle and your specific requirements. If you are pulling trailers or climbing hills all day I'd pick the 2.5L Toyota hybrids against any Atto or MGZS EV

How many km a year of driving are thinking of putting on the 2nd vehicle? If its only going to be 10,000km per year you will have a hard time financially justifying anything in the Hybrid/PHEV/EV spectrum. Do other considerations like performance, environment, technology come into account?

For my 2c given your family size and the trips lengths you are talking about I think something along the lines of a RAV4 would fit well. Mid-size, practical space for dogs, good resale, 5.5L/100km if you get the hybrid. But then you are up for spending $50k again.

If your budget is $15-25k then this is all a moot point. I dont think there is any hybrid/PHEV/EV in that price range that fit your duties that I'd be looking at. The Hybrid Corollas have quite small engines and therefore not much oomph when the batteries get low

Scott3

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#3002473 28-Nov-2022 10:38

ZombieJohn: Hi Folks.

Here I am using your collective brain power because I'm at a loss as to what to do regarding our next vehicle.

For context, we live in Whangarei and I will typically drive to Auckland once a fortnight (but can be once a week at times) and my wife up north once a week (normally an hour to an hour and a half). The rest of the time around town. We currently own a 2013 Mazda atenza Diesel wagon. It is absolutely fantastic but we need a second car. (And the prices at the pump are also hurting).

Last bit of context; We have 2 large dogs and 2 small kids.

We are able to access the EV home loan from ASB but don't feel comfortable spending crazy money on a vehicle. Our brain tells us the 15k to 25k is a smart decision. 50k for the Atto just seems beyond what we should be spending.

So... Given the huge amount of context what would you do? I have looked at the atto3, mg Ev, leaf, outlander phev, and others. To be honest, the Toyota corolla hybrid wagon seems like it might be winning the proverbial race.

Thanks all!

How many km/s a year do you think you will be able to move from the Mazda to the EV?

From the info you have given, potentially quite a lot. Say 320km round trip every 1.5 weeks + 200km trip every week + 100km for every other day = approximately 28,000km a year... At 7l/100km & 2.30/L + 7.6c/km RUC (rate after discount expires on 1 feb 2023), this works out to $6,636 in fuel + RUC a year.

Two most obvious picks:

Swapping that distance something like a pruis alpha (prius V) would cut your running costs in half (28,000km @ 5L/100km and $2.40/L fuel = $3,360) a 2011 can be had for about $13k, or a 2015 for about $23k. These are basically the 3rd gen Prius drivetrain with a bigger body. Both interior and boot space is impressive. 100kW system power, so will be a slower than your current (129kW I assume) Mazda. Payback period 3.94 years on a $13k purchase vs the mazda.

Running the numbers on a atto3 extended range, 28,000km at 15.6kWh/100km (seems optimistic byt from autocar.co.nz) and 20c/kWh power, works out to $873.60 in energy costs. This car is much more powerful (150kW), but is new on the market, so no used option available, so as you say $50k after the rebate. Payback period of the entire purchase price vs the Mazda 8.7 years. Suspect this car's boot may be too small for your dogs.

Of course, very simple model, ignores maintenance, residual values of the car's etc.

On spending a lot of money, on a car, assuming you can finance the initial purchase, It is the total cost of ownership that is by far the most important bit, rather than the upfront cost.

Of course, any future projections have risk:

Fuel prices shifts will have a big impact on the model
Currently EV and hybrid cars are depreciating slowly, due to supply shortages of new (and used ex-japan) cars, and high fuel prices.
EV's are exempt from RUC's untill April 2024. If this is allowed to lapse, the cheap running costs of EV's are gone overnight, and it becomes cheaper to run a yaris hybrid or something (Which would pay roughly 1/3rd the road tax of an EV or diesel). - System needs to be reworked before it is applied to EV's, so there is a good chance that successive governments just kick the can down the road by extending the exemption.

I don't think PHEV would be a good pick for your use case. The ideal use case for a phev is somebody who commutes near it's range daily, but wants the ability to do a handfull of intercity trips a year. In your case, you are doing multiple intercity trips a week, so I think the PHEV bit adds little value. Of course, the outlander PHEV is a good shape for the kids + large dogs brief.

Other Car options that could be considered:

Rav4 hybrid - More powerful than the Prius alpha at 160kW, only uses a touch more fuel (4.7 vs 5.3L/100km), but in very short supply. 6+ month waits for a new one, and high prices in the used market.

Toyota corolla fielder hybrid. Common used import, but I think Toyota NZ is bringing them into NZ new next year. Cheap, economical (3.9L/100km rated), and a station wagon. Smaller, and less powerfull than the prius alpha (73kW) - shares the drive train of the Toyota aqua.

MG ZS EV: cheaper than the atto3, but range is only 320km rated, so those trips to Auckland would need a stop at a fast charger (potentially 80c/kWh) on the way home.

SsangYong Korando e-Motion ($59,990 +ORC before rebate). 339km rated range. Main appeal over the Atto 3 would be a bigger boot, and larger (1500kg braked tow rating). Still probably need to stop for 5mins of power on the way home from Auckland.

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#3002474 28-Nov-2022 10:38

No way you can fit 2 large dogs in the boot of the atto 3

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Scott3

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#3002525 28-Nov-2022 10:47

billgates:

Hybrid's lack power IMO. They struggle climbing hills, and you really must floor it to overtake other cars on passing lanes. PHEV or EV is where it's at. MG EV base variant at $42k after subsidy or BYD Atto 3 LR version $52k after subsidy are good buy.

There are a wide range of hybrids and EV's available. The Hybrid in my driveway is substantially more powerful and faster than our EV. (as you would expect, given the hybrid has a system output of 200kW, while the EV is 80kW).

Even the cheaper lower powered hybrids (aqua etc.), offer better power to weight ratio than the likes of diesel prado's from a few years back (which people happily paid). But I agree that they do need to be worked hard, and have intrusive noise when you do.

Auckland to Whangarei route is mostly just flowing with traffic anyway.

Obraik

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#3002527 28-Nov-2022 10:52

For a regular Whangarei to Auckland drive, you'll need to budget higher than 25k for an EV, unless you don't mind stopping once each way. With the 1% EV loan from ASB, you could get a brand new MG ZS EV for $40k...but that won't really be saving you money if you would be spending $20k more than you otherwise would. I'm guessing your fuel cost just for your Auckland trips are around $1800 per year, so it would take around 10 years of doing that before you started to save money (quicker if diesel continues to increase in price).

At the same time though, that 1% loan is pretty appealing since you'd essentially be getting a car loan where nearly everything you pay towards it is going towards the actual car rather than interest. On a $40k car you'd only be paying around $600 in interest.

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Scott3

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#3002529 28-Nov-2022 10:56

As a side note, often the newest stuff to come to market has the lowest depreciation, and potentially lowest cost of ownership despite a higher purchase price.

Stuff in this bracket would include:

Tesla model Y
LDV eT60 ute (This has poor efficiency and lowish range at 325km)
LDV Mifa9 people mover (440km rated range). Pritty massive car

Still need to pony up and extra $20k over something like the SsangYong for any of these.

If you are after a EV station wagon, they are very rare, but we do get the odd MG-5 in as a grey market import from the UK.

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#3002619 28-Nov-2022 13:40

michaelmurfy:

I'm personally a Tesla owner and would never go back to an ICE car. I absolutely love it. I personally went with the Tesla due to me doing quite a bit of driving (23,000km since March) along with doing at-least something to help combat climate change and also save a tonne of money ($120/wk in Petrol down to $5/wk in Electricity).

The thing you've got to look at with buying an EV is the fact you're no-longer chained to oil companies. There is also less that can go wrong with them, no yearly servicing, no oil changes and again no filling up at the petrol pump.

Over a number of years the BYD Atto for example will indeed pay for itself and you'll find joy in going for a drive to a Cafe out of town for example and just visiting new places. Changing infrastructure around NZ is getting better too.

A change on home electricity on average will cost around ~$3 but will give you close to 300km-400km range of straight driving.

Lastly, there is just massive joy with driving an EV. Instant torque and acceleration and knowing you're not going to be affected by petrol pricing going forward.

I am bias being an EV owner myself but honestly take the MG and the Atto out for a test drive and join up on the Facebook groups too. Work out your yearly maintenance and petrol costs and factor those in to your decision along with having a new, more reliable car in the process. You will not at all regret owning one.

The thing with Hybrids is more can go wrong - you've got a high voltage system combined with a petrol engine that requires more servicing and they're gutless too. PHEV's are OK but again you've still got the maintenance on the engine and with both options you're still a slave to oil companies too.

Dang, some good info here, thanks very informative.

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