Should cyclists pay road taxes ?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Should cyclists pay road taxes ?

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#2718678 5-Jun-2021 14:31

SomeoneSomewhere:

This may be a stupid question, but what on earth are you actually trying to achieve?

Intrinsic sense of fairness even if everyone ends up worse off, but at least it's "fair"?

Lower costs for car users?

You're sick of watching bikes pass you in traffic and want revenge?

If everyone cycled, everyone would end up paying perhaps $2K extra in taxes each year. because the need for roads will NOT go away.

tdgeek

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#2718679 5-Jun-2021 14:32

alasta:

Rikkitic:

Coming from Europe, I have a slightly different perspective on this. Holland in particular is a cycling country, as are some others. There are very few transport needs that cannot be met by cycling.

Out of interest, how does this work for people who can't ride a bicycle? I imagine the alternative is to walk, but as a pedestrian I would feel quite intimidated by large mobs of cyclist shooting past me at high speed. Are the cycleways well separated from pedestrian paths?

Actually you get large mobs of cars shooting past you at high speed, that seems to work Footpath then road becomes footpath then cycleway then road, seems safer actually

Rikkitic

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#2718681 5-Jun-2021 14:35

Every cyclist pays additional taxes in one form or another to clean up the messes made by all the motorists.

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SomeoneSomewhere

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#2718683 5-Jun-2021 14:45

sir1963:

Batman:

He thinks cyclists pay no tax. Some pay no tax sone pay more tax than him.

But I think he mainly disagrees with the clip on harbour bridge for 1 billion dollars (650mil x blowout costs).

I disagree with that stupid clip on too. But not because cyclists supposedly pay no tax. That's a generalization which is inaccurate.

ALL motorists pay additional taxes to help pay for the roads (to the tune of about $4 Billion a year)

NO cyclist pays any additional taxes to pay for cycleways.

The additional taxes are on TOP of income taxes, Rates etc, the fact you pay these is 100% irrelevant.

Again, the figure from the Budget is $1.8b. I don't know where you get $4b from.

The current system is not user pays, given that the taxpayer is essentially subsidising the roading industry by $3.2b per year. Why is that irrelevant?

Motorists pay additional taxes because they cause a need for additional maintenance, upgrades, and other factors above-and-beyond what is covered by their tax.

And yeah, I think the proposed bridge is a little on the daft side but I've heard the existing bridge isn't suitable due to the slope, so it's this or a new harbour crossing for everything - if this bridge puts that off for another decade, $$$$ saved.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2718684 5-Jun-2021 14:47

sir1963:

SomeoneSomewhere:

This may be a stupid question, but what on earth are you actually trying to achieve?

Intrinsic sense of fairness even if everyone ends up worse off, but at least it's "fair"?

Lower costs for car users?

You're sick of watching bikes pass you in traffic and want revenge?

If everyone cycled, everyone would end up paying perhaps $2K extra in taxes each year. because the need for roads will NOT go away.

Again, it would lessen. Do you think we would need to replace the existing harbour bridge and build new motorways at anywhere near the same rate as we do now, if there was only commercial traffic?

$2k/year per person is about twice the current roading budget.

Eva888

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#2718685 5-Jun-2021 14:53

@Rikkitic. Do you cycle? If yes, bravo. I have great admiration for anyone over 60 who can and they are to be encouraged. I totally agree it is great exercise...but not everyone over 60 has that luxury and if Andrea Bocceli gives such a fine example to the blind that’s also wonderful.

One can always find an exception to give as an example.

A quick Google can give information on research conducted on raised PSA and increased possibility of prostate cancer in male cyclists and which points to the fact that too much can cause issues. Being made aware of these facts doesn’t mean men should give up cycling but should raise awareness of how to protect themselves and how it may impact fertility for those who have difficulty starting a family. Way off topic here and next will be extolling the virtues of loose underwear.

Rikkitic

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#2718688 5-Jun-2021 15:06

Agree, we are veering off-topic. The discussion (I think) is whether cyclists are getting a free ride (pun intended) or should pay extra in some fashion for the facilities they enjoy. My argument is that they are already paying, just like other road users, but in a different way. People who cycle produce public benefits that people who drive do not, and this compensates for the fact that they don't pay extra charges. Some here seem to still cling to the notion that cyclists are just parasites who get in the way of cars and don't contribute anything except aggravation. I am arguing against that attitude.

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sbiddle

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#2718694 5-Jun-2021 15:22

To get back to what seems to be the root discussion here, I think the new crossing is one of the stupidest things that has been announced in recent years - but I guess we can have faith in the fact they haven't delivered much of an anything else, so there potentially isn't a lot of confidence this will happen.

Why are we wasting so money on this when the requirement for a tunnel is still there (and has to happen at some point). The cost of this is probably 1/5 of the cost of the tunnel. Surely it makes sense to finally start on this now and then move the current bridge to offer express bus lanes and cycle/bike paths? A 2nd bridge or tunnel has been announced so many times, and if work had actually begun on this after the last time it was announced construction would have already started. It really just does show that a country of procrastinators we are!

(And I say this being somebody who is fully behind cycle infrastructure).

Rikkitic

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#2718697 5-Jun-2021 15:47

I also don't understand this. The cycle bridge sounds like a panicky response to bad publicity. It would make a lot more sense to push on with the tunnel, then change the bridge configuration when the tunnel can take some of the traffic. Surely that would free up a lane for cyclists?

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Rikkitic

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#2718705 5-Jun-2021 16:35

Eva888:

A quick Google can give information on research conducted on raised PSA and increased possibility of prostate cancer in male cyclists and which points to the fact that too much can cause issues. Being made aware of these facts doesn’t mean men should give up cycling but should raise awareness of how to protect themselves and how it may impact fertility for those who have difficulty starting a family. Way off topic here and next will be extolling the virtues of loose underwear.

Cycling may not be the biggest problem. Just saying.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

GV27

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#2718711 5-Jun-2021 16:55

sbiddle:

Why are we wasting so money on this when the requirement for a tunnel is still there (and has to happen at some point). The cost of this is probably 1/5 of the cost of the tunnel. Surely it makes sense to finally start on this now and then move the current bridge to offer express bus lanes and cycle/bike paths? A 2nd bridge or tunnel has been announced so many times, and if work had actually begun on this after the last time it was announced construction would have already started. It really just does show that a country of procrastinators we are!

(And I say this being somebody who is fully behind cycle infrastructure).

A tunnel will cross at least $10b. Not only that, the requirements for tunnels to move general traffic over and above just light rail or similar includes:

1) Increased ventilation demands over and above what the CRL has to provide for, so a much higher cost per km;

2) Increased footprints at entry/exits, which will suck up a huge amount of land on both sides of the harbour;

3) A bigger corridor to feed both the tunnels and the current bridge, which wouldn't be dismantled once a tunnel is built, which will involve either building into the existing rapid transit space taken up by the busway, or expanding the houses on the other side of the motorway (or both).

A pedestrian and rapid transit bridge would give most of the benefits of a whole set of tunnels for a fraction of the price, but NZTA is falling over itself to not include this as an option in the discussion around the next harbour crossing.

Don't forget also that for the price of a tunnel to connect two already-connected parts of inner Auckland, you could probably build mega-projects all over the city and still have enough money left over to redevelop Eden Park into an indoor all-purpose venue.

We can't afford tunnels and can't justify them when a proper bridge would do the same job with almost none of the downsides for a fraction of the cost.

tdgeek

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#2718725 5-Jun-2021 17:49

sir1963:

Take away footpaths and watch the economic activity drop in that area. This leads to :

Drop in GST

Drop in property values/rates.

Rates include costs for footpaths because practically everyone uses them, pedestrians, cyclists, motorists , even if they only walk from shop to shop, or to a bus.

The same argument goes for roads.

And EVs are also non polluting.

So lets tax footpaths so its fair, maybe a toll as not everyone uses them

EVs are non polluting? True, so lets tax ICE as they are polluting. User pays. Credit cyclists as they are non polluting

tdgeek

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#2718726 5-Jun-2021 17:52

elpenguino:
Actually, I think some paint on wellington waterfront would be a good idea because at the moment pedestrians wander aimlessly.

A bit of lane segregation would be a good thing.

Yeah, ban pedestrians, darn people. yes, stupid comment, but this is a stupid thread

tdgeek

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#2718727 5-Jun-2021 17:57

sir1963:

ALL motorists pay additional taxes to help pay for the roads (to the tune of about $4 Billion a year)

NO cyclist pays any additional taxes to pay for cycleways.

The additional taxes are on TOP of income taxes, Rates etc, the fact you pay these is 100% irrelevant.

ou keep quoting 4B and that continually keeps getting corrected. Why do we have a congestion problem??? Too many cars or the "4B" isn't enough. maybe we need to triple the RUC so that we can catch up and have no congestion. Or we could incentive less cars, maybe like a non car bridge that cycles, e-bikes and e=scooters can use instead? If something like climate change was to happen, maybe that would help. One day, cars wont be allowed unless they are EV's.

Stu

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#2718728 5-Jun-2021 17:59

Rikkitic:
I also don't understand this. The cycle bridge sounds like a panicky response to bad publicity. It would make a lot more sense to push on with the tunnel, then change the bridge configuration when the tunnel can take some of the traffic. Surely that would free up a lane for cyclists?

My thoughts exactly. Put the money into the tunnel, which the government said is the most likely harbour crossing option they'll go for, and start work on the tunnel ASAP.

People often mistake me for an adult because of my age.

Keep calm, and carry on posting.

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