Why is driver training being ignored? Aw

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Nurse (R)

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#2157365 10-Jan-2019 10:31

In 1977 I did an 'Advanced Driving' course & test put on by the good old 'Black & White" coppers of the day. It was part of my RNZAF promotions course. What fun it was too. The 3 main things I got out of it was: situational awareness, prediction & how to get out off tricky situations. (skid pan). I still got the course certificate somewhere.

I find that a lot of today's new drivers have non of the above attributes.

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

Geektastic

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#2157389 10-Jan-2019 11:08

FineWine:

In 1977 I did an 'Advanced Driving' course & test put on by the good old 'Black & White" coppers of the day. It was part of my RNZAF promotions course. What fun it was too. The 3 main things I got out of it was: situational awareness, prediction & how to get out off tricky situations. (skid pan). I still got the course certificate somewhere.

I find that a lot of today's new drivers have non of the above attributes.

The Institute of Advanced Motoring exists in NZ and their handbook is the Police Roadcraft Manual. You can join and do their test right here in NZ. At present they have more motorcycle members than car members, but the car membership is growing.

Geektastic

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#2157390 10-Jan-2019 11:09

Coil:

MikeB4:

One thing that I have always thought was crazy and please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is a new driver has no restriction on the power of a car they can own or drive, e.g get their licence today and go and by an Audi R8, that is insane. We recognise the problem when it comes to motorcycles but not with cars.

You are correct, One of my first cars was a 340HP/660NM Audi S4. Before that was a BMW E30 325 which was not fast but enough to get you into trouble.
I did spend most of my childhood driving cars on farms and other vehicles and my father always had high powered cars. I was no stranger to power and how to handle it and the dangers around it. Compare this to some friends of mine who learnt to drive at 16 rather than 6, its a different world. Most of them have wrapped at least one powerful car. But that's due to their own doing and coming into grief rather than the car just lurching forward on you in traffic.

It is different to motorcycles I feel, all powerful cars made today can be driven by a Nana around town without even knowing it could go from 0-60 in 3 seconds. It is all down to self control and driver training. It does not take an idiot to realize you do not press the throttle wide open on a RS6 in a 50 kph area with cars in front of you. Modern cars are a no brainer and if you cannot drive a fast one then you shouldn't be on the road.

Old power cars are generally bought by a discerning buyer who knows what they are getting into, they are also more likely to be the ones pushing their limits. Then again, you can push limits of a non powerful car and end up in more grief as they are generally much worse at handling. Its all down to being human.

At the end of the day, you can't go as wrong as you can on a bike. Humans will be human, Limes will be ridden on the footpath at 30KPH, people will whinge about rural broadband, people won't merge like a zip or speed up on an onramp, the world keeps turning.

@MikeB4 - that is why I suggested some form of compulsory insurance, because it would act to prevent new drivers from jumping in powerful cars that cost more to insure than they could afford.

TinyTim

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#2157395 10-Jan-2019 11:14

Geektastic:

@MikeB4 - that is why I suggested some form of compulsory insurance, because it would act to prevent new drivers from jumping in powerful cars that cost more to insure than they could afford.

Will it really prevent them from driving them? Or will they just become uninsured drivers?

trig42

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#2157457 10-Jan-2019 12:27

Geektastic:

FineWine:

In 1977 I did an 'Advanced Driving' course & test put on by the good old 'Black & White" coppers of the day. It was part of my RNZAF promotions course. What fun it was too. The 3 main things I got out of it was: situational awareness, prediction & how to get out off tricky situations. (skid pan). I still got the course certificate somewhere.

I find that a lot of today's new drivers have non of the above attributes.

The Institute of Advanced Motoring exists in NZ and their handbook is the Police Roadcraft Manual. You can join and do their test right here in NZ. At present they have more motorcycle members than car members, but the car membership is growing.

I did a Defensive Driving course as part of my elective subjects (Wednesday afternoons off) at school.

Whilst it was theory only (no practical), I still refer back to things they taught us (and I did it 30 years ago), so I found it immensely valuable. I'd find a practical one valuable too, and may well find an advanced drivers course to do sometime (skid pans etc.)

Back then, doing the Defensive Driving course knocked 9 months off the time it took me to go from Restricted to Full license.

FineWine

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Nurse (R)

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#2157479 10-Jan-2019 12:59

I still think NZ should introduce a Graduated Licensing Scheme and a Hazard Perception Test (even though that is computer based only and not a practical) like they have in NSW.

In others words; Yellow 'L' Plate > Red 'P' Plate > Green 'P' Plate, then full license. Of course all these different plates come with their own set of restrictions. Having lived in VIC & NSW for 30 years I can tell you these visual plate indicators gives you a really good heads up that you have an inexperienced driver near by.

Edit: typing mistakes

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

shk292

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#2157539 10-Jan-2019 13:54

TinyTim:

Will it really prevent them from driving them? Or will they just become uninsured drivers?

If we're going to reject possible legislation changes because of a prediction that people won't obey the new rules, then we might as well just give up and accept that NZ's road toll is always going to be high.

There are any number of ways to ensure that compulsory insurance is just that - starting with harsh penalties for transgressors and including things like ANPR or even low-tech insurance stickers on the windscreen. A rule that "uninsured car on road = crushed car" would quickly get the message home even for the hard of thinking.

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Geektastic

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#2157590 10-Jan-2019 14:14

TinyTim:
Geektastic:

@MikeB4 - that is why I suggested some form of compulsory insurance, because it would act to prevent new drivers from jumping in powerful cars that cost more to insure than they could afford.

Will it really prevent them from driving them? Or will they just become uninsured drivers?

Down to enforcement. They manage to enforce it elsewhere......

WyleECoyoteNZ

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#2157604 10-Jan-2019 14:28

Coil:

MikeB4:

One thing that I have always thought was crazy and please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is a new driver has no restriction on the power of a car they can own or drive, e.g get their licence today and go and by an Audi R8, that is insane. We recognise the problem when it comes to motorcycles but not with cars.

You are correct, One of my first cars was a 340HP/660NM Audi S4. Before that was a BMW E30 325 which was not fast but enough to get you into trouble.
I did spend most of my childhood driving cars on farms and other vehicles and my father always had high powered cars. I was no stranger to power and how to handle it and the dangers around it. Compare this to some friends of mine who learnt to drive at 16 rather than 6, its a different world. Most of them have wrapped at least one powerful car. But that's due to their own doing and coming into grief rather than the car just lurching forward on you in traffic.

It is different to motorcycles I feel, all powerful cars made today can be driven by a Nana around town without even knowing it could go from 0-60 in 3 seconds. It is all down to self control and driver training. It does not take an idiot to realize you do not press the throttle wide open on a RS6 in a 50 kph area with cars in front of you. Modern cars are a no brainer and if you cannot drive a fast one then you shouldn't be on the road.

I think in Australia new drivers on there P plates are restricted to what sort of car they can drive. I think state to state is different.

And I'm fairly certain here in NZ, for motorcycles at least, that you are not supposed to ride anything bigger than a 125cc bike while on your learner's and maybe restricted license.

For young driver's, there is the Holden Street Smart course they can do. Greg Murphy is the front person for this course.

This post below from his Facebook page

NzBeagle

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#2157608 10-Jan-2019 14:32

WyleECoyoteNZ:

Coil:

MikeB4:

One thing that I have always thought was crazy and please correct me if I am wrong. My understanding is a new driver has no restriction on the power of a car they can own or drive, e.g get their licence today and go and by an Audi R8, that is insane. We recognise the problem when it comes to motorcycles but not with cars.

You are correct, One of my first cars was a 340HP/660NM Audi S4. Before that was a BMW E30 325 which was not fast but enough to get you into trouble.
I did spend most of my childhood driving cars on farms and other vehicles and my father always had high powered cars. I was no stranger to power and how to handle it and the dangers around it. Compare this to some friends of mine who learnt to drive at 16 rather than 6, its a different world. Most of them have wrapped at least one powerful car. But that's due to their own doing and coming into grief rather than the car just lurching forward on you in traffic.

It is different to motorcycles I feel, all powerful cars made today can be driven by a Nana around town without even knowing it could go from 0-60 in 3 seconds. It is all down to self control and driver training. It does not take an idiot to realize you do not press the throttle wide open on a RS6 in a 50 kph area with cars in front of you. Modern cars are a no brainer and if you cannot drive a fast one then you shouldn't be on the road.

I think in Australia new drivers on there P plates are restricted to what sort of car they can drive. I think state to state is different.

And I'm fairly certain here in NZ, for motorcycles at least, that you are not supposed to ride anything bigger than a 125cc bike while on your learner's and maybe restricted license.

Not 125cc, but power limited yes. Improved in recent years from the old 250cc restriction which unnecessarily inflated the value of those bikes, while allowing 2 stroke 250cc pocket rockets in the hands of a learner.

FineWine

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Nurse (R)

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#2157615 10-Jan-2019 14:44

WyleECoyoteNZ:I think in Australia new drivers on there P plates are restricted to what sort of car they can drive. I think state to state is different.

You are quite correct and it is a little confusing as it depends upon what State you are in:

Australian National p-plate-laws-explained

Australian L and P plate National Guide

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

Coil

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#2157635 10-Jan-2019 15:12

NzBeagle:

Not 125cc, but power limited yes. Improved in recent years from the old 250cc restriction which unnecessarily inflated the value of those bikes, while allowing 2 stroke 250cc pocket rockets in the hands of a learner.

2 stroke and 4 stroke 4 cylinder 250 CC bikes are outlawed for learners in NZ FYI, Have been for the last 5 of my driving years at least.

Coil

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#2157637 10-Jan-2019 15:14

Geektastic:

@MikeB4 - that is why I suggested some form of compulsory insurance, because it would act to prevent new drivers from jumping in powerful cars that cost more to insure than they could afford.

All the guys I know who have fast cars are from rich backgrounds, they have the least amount of respect for their cars and other road users. Expensive insurance won't change a thing, apart from the kids disrespecting their parents banks more.

NzBeagle

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#2157641 10-Jan-2019 15:22

Coil:

NzBeagle:

Not 125cc, but power limited yes. Improved in recent years from the old 250cc restriction which unnecessarily inflated the value of those bikes, while allowing 2 stroke 250cc pocket rockets in the hands of a learner.

2 stroke and 4 stroke 4 cylinder 250 CC bikes are outlawed for learners in NZ FYI, Have been for the last 5 of my driving years at least.

Sorry, I thought the conversation was in relation to how the motorcycle licences prohibit what you can use while learning / restricted, something that had been suggested for car licences.

On the motorcycle learner/restricted licences you can now ride over 250cc if it's on the list.

tdgeek

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#2157649 10-Jan-2019 15:35

NzBeagle:

Coil:

NzBeagle:

Not 125cc, but power limited yes. Improved in recent years from the old 250cc restriction which unnecessarily inflated the value of those bikes, while allowing 2 stroke 250cc pocket rockets in the hands of a learner.

2 stroke and 4 stroke 4 cylinder 250 CC bikes are outlawed for learners in NZ FYI, Have been for the last 5 of my driving years at least.

Sorry, I thought the conversation was in relation to how the motorcycle licences prohibit what you can use while learning / restricted, something that had been suggested for car licences.

On the motorcycle learner/restricted licences you can now ride over 250cc if it's on the list.

Its based around 33hp IIRC. You can use bigger than 250cc if the bigger cc bike is reduced to 33hp. My 656cc is 92hp, you can get a model similar at 33hp, then I assume you get it unlocked or the reducer thingamagie is taken off

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