Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

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#2259759 17-Jun-2019 21:27

Delphinus:

Obraik:

It's not just me saying this, I'm not just making this up because I've got a foot in the race. This is what many, many scientists are saying. Here's just one example

This seems to support a lot of what I'm reading too.

Electricity > Electrolysis > Hydrogen > Burning = 62% efficient. Also requires building brand new infrastructure to pipe or store the Hydrogen around the country. And you're creating nitrous oxide

Electricity > Heatpump = 280 to 410%m ore heat energy than the electricity consumed. Also uses existing electrical grid infrastucture.

If you're building more power generation to make Hydrogen, just use that power directly right? Set some tarrifs that encourage overnight charging of EV's etc.

Electrolysis is zero emissions. NO is very very negligible. If you make gas (H2) that goes in bottles or pipes. Liquid hydrogen is the problem, it needs pressure so that it doesnt boil at around -200C Use gas. Its intensive, 2 or 3 X petrol. Its a good fuel. Electrolysis needs to improve so its quicker and cheaper, thats happening by using different metals . Its green ti make and green to burn. With that in mind its greener than EV

If you're building more power generation to make Hydrogen? No. Manufacture H2 (gas) use that to power the currently coal fired stations.

Many use gas for heating and cooking. Replace LPG with H2 Piping needs to be changed, not hard

Delphinus

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#2259769 17-Jun-2019 21:38

tdgeek:

If you're building more power generation to make Hydrogen? No. Manufacture H2 (gas) use that to power the currently coal fired stations.

How do you manufacture the H2 gas without electricity? Weren't you just talking about Electrolysis?

tdgeek

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#2259771 17-Jun-2019 21:44

Delphinus:

If you're replacing a coal > electricity power station, why would you put in electricity > hydrogen > electricity plant? That seems like a horrific waste of energy at each conversion.

No, I didn't say that. We have coal fired power generation. That needs to go. Replace the fuel.

VW are planning on making their Electric ID vehicle carbon-neutral.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/02/20190218-volkswagenid.html

They have done 33% thats good. They are not making it carbon free (as you would if you ran the plants with renewables) VW are using carbon credits, investing elsewhere to make up for it. Thats not stopping CO2

What form are you storing the H2 to get 3x energy density?
"A 100 kg of hydrogen tank at 10,000 psi will hold 8 kg of hydrogen, or enough to travel about 350 miles in a fuel-cell car. This is about as far as a gasoline car goes carrying 60 kg of tank + gasoline." from http://www.rebresearch.com/blog/hydrogen-versus-battery-power/

That would make it less energy intensive per kg than petrol? 350miles from 60kg of petrol or 100kg of hydrogen (incl tanks in both cases).

The form is gas, thats what H2 is. I will look at my history. It was definitely more intensive than petrol, this was gas, not pressurised liquid. Its worth googling all this. UK has a lot going on. Not web articles but real world projects. Cars driving round, a gas station that produces its H2, the work on housing estates.

UK is looking at replacing natural gas nation-wide. They already produce H and H2. .75 M tonnes p.a. They need produce 8M tonnes. Thats just 10 times more. Doable

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#2259772 17-Jun-2019 21:44

tdgeek:

Electrolysis is zero emissions. NO is very very negligible. If you make gas (H2) that goes in bottles or pipes. Liquid hydrogen is the problem, it needs pressure so that it doesnt boil at around -200C Use gas. Its intensive, 2 or 3 X petrol. Its a good fuel. Electrolysis needs to improve so its quicker and cheaper, thats happening by using different metals . Its green ti make and green to burn. With that in mind its greener than EV

Green to make if you only use electrolysis from a 100% green power source. We'd need to build a lot more generation to cover this H2 production demand.

Green to burn only in 100% pure oxygen. If you're burning it in atmospheric air instead of pure oxygen, as is usually the case, hydrogen combustion may yield small amounts of nitrogen oxides, along with the water vapor.

Cars are not going to be carrying round 100% oxygen tanks with them, so they will be emitting NOx, which is not green.

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#2259775 17-Jun-2019 21:49

Delphinus:

tdgeek:

If you're building more power generation to make Hydrogen? No. Manufacture H2 (gas) use that to power the currently coal fired stations.

How do you manufacture the H2 gas without electricity? Weren't you just talking about Electrolysis?

You are using the term power generation. Its H2 manufacture. Electrolysis is one way. If you use that and use renewables (that we have) its almost zero emissions to manufacture and zero to burn. Perfect. Its plentiful. Perfect. Its expensive to make though. It will get cheaper, they already are testing other metals that are cheaper and quicker. It will probably always be expensive, but whioenwe can use cheaper FF there is no point is there? If H and H2 are all the issues that the detractors say, then why are Governments and industry using it and developing it?

tdgeek

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#2259780 17-Jun-2019 21:57

Delphinus:

tdgeek:

Electrolysis is zero emissions. NO is very very negligible. If you make gas (H2) that goes in bottles or pipes. Liquid hydrogen is the problem, it needs pressure so that it doesnt boil at around -200C Use gas. Its intensive, 2 or 3 X petrol. Its a good fuel. Electrolysis needs to improve so its quicker and cheaper, thats happening by using different metals . Its green ti make and green to burn. With that in mind its greener than EV

Green to make if you only use electrolysis from a 100% green power source. We'd need to build a lot more generation to cover this H2 production demand.

Green to burn only in 100% pure oxygen. If you're burning it in atmospheric air instead of pure oxygen, as is usually the case, hydrogen combustion may yield small amounts of nitrogen oxides, along with the water vapor.

Cars are not going to be carrying round 100% oxygen tanks with them, so they will be emitting NOx, which is not green.

It yields small and I mean small NO. And water vapour. Whats the issue? We can use FF and emit CO2 etc etc etc .

How much mine generation do we need to produce more H2? You must know as you said "build a lot more" How much will we need to powering EVs? If we are to use more electricity to replace FF then off course that needs ti happen. We wont be importing EV's at the rate of 10,000 per week, not ramping up H2 (if we do this) overnight. Thats part of the changes we need to make

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#2259797 17-Jun-2019 22:00

frednz:

jonathan18: Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. For real this time, IEA Says

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/113530601/hydrogen-is-the-fuel-of-the-future-for-real-this-time-iea-says

Here's a fairly relevant quote from the executive summary of the report:

Hydrogen is almost entirely supplied from natural gas and coal today. Hydrogen is
already with us at industrial scale all around the world, but its production is responsible for
annual CO2 emissions equivalent to those of Indonesia and United Kingdom combined.

Harnessing this existing scale on the way to a clean energy future requires both the capture
of CO2 from hydrogen production from fossil fuels and greater supplies of hydrogen from
clean electricity.

• Regulations currently limit the development of a clean hydrogen industry.
Government and industry must work together to ensure existing regulations are not an
unnecessary barrier to investment. Trade will benefit from common international
standards for the safety of transporting and storing large volumes of hydrogen and for
tracing the environmental impacts of different hydrogen supplies.

As other posters have mentioned here, the main global focus should be on the development of a "clean hydrogen industry".

Absolutely . Otherwise there is no point. Plus, with whatever funds are spent by whoever, they need to target the most emissions per dollar

Obraik

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#2259875 18-Jun-2019 00:29

tdgeek:

You are using the term power generation. Its H2 manufacture. Electrolysis is one way. If you use that and use renewables (that we have) its almost zero emissions to manufacture and zero to burn. Perfect. Its plentiful. Perfect. Its expensive to make though. It will get cheaper, they already are testing other metals that are cheaper and quicker. It will probably always be expensive, but whioenwe can use cheaper FF there is no point is there? If H and H2 are all the issues that the detractors say, then why are Governments and industry using it and developing it?

How do you come to the conclusion that it's plentiful? Hydrogen might be everywhere but it's not in a form that's usable as fuel. There's currently no real solution to get it to a usable form that puts Hydrogen ahead of simply using the electricity as it is for the tasks you're proposing for Hydrogen. You seem to be missing this point - yes, we can use renewables to make green hydrogen but we can also use those renewables to directly power what you were instead going to power with the hydrogen you produce, and be able to make it go much further while being pretty much just as green.

Looking to buy a Tesla? Use my referral link and we both get credits

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#2259884 18-Jun-2019 06:56

tdgeek:

You can use it in cars as we do with LPG.

Whilst you can use it to run an ICE, it's the storage of hydrogen that is the difficulty. In particular, either compressing it a *lot* or cooling it enormously.

H2 can be used to power what are now our coal fired power stations, so they become green.

This is crazy... producing hydrogen (inefficiently) from electricity so you can burn it (inefficiently) to make electricity.

frankv

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#2259886 18-Jun-2019 07:08

tdgeek:

Its intensive, 2 or 3 X petrol.

I'm curious where you get this figure... are you talking about energy/kg perhaps? But that's very misleading, because you also need to consider volume. To get the volume down to something reasonable, you need to store it at very high pressures, and to get high pressure you need very strong containers, and for that you need heavy structures.

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#2259906 18-Jun-2019 07:39

Obraik:

How do you come to the conclusion that it's plentiful? Hydrogen might be everywhere but it's not in a form that's usable as fuel. There's currently no real solution to get it to a usable form that puts Hydrogen ahead of simply using the electricity as it is for the tasks you're proposing for Hydrogen. You seem to be missing this point - yes, we can use renewables to make green hydrogen but we can also use those renewables to directly power what you were instead going to power with the hydrogen you produce, and be able to make it go much further while being pretty much just as green.

You know exactly what I mean. Its plentiful I'm not going to explain that. There is no solution? Its in use right now, everywhere as a produced fuel, there are projects where its powering cars, and housing estates, ive already explained this and suggested you google. Why are Govts, scientists getting serious? Do you know more than them? The only reason I can see is that you are obsessed over EV so any competing fuel you will bag. Im not going to explain yet again what develepoments are in place to make H2 less costly . Its getting very clear that you dont want to help Climate Change you just want your EV cash subsidy, thats the inefficient use of funds to reduce emissions

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#2259908 18-Jun-2019 07:46

frankv:

tdgeek:

Its intensive, 2 or 3 X petrol.

I'm curious where you get this figure... are you talking about energy/kg perhaps? But that's very misleading, because you also need to consider volume. To get the volume down to something reasonable, you need to store it at very high pressures, and to get high pressure you need very strong containers, and for that you need heavy structures.

You are talking Hydrogen in liquid form. Where it has to be stored at pressure so that it doesn't boil, which is roughly -200C. This means its a problem transporting it and its a problem storing it. H2 is gas, that can be stored and piped as it is now. It would need a change in piping as the atoms are smaller, so top leaks. Other than that use it to heat or cook, replacing your existing LPG heating and cooking. use it in your car, replacing the LPG you currently use. It is more intensive than petrol, so unlike LPG which uses more for the same energy, H2 is more potent so uses less. You can also use it in an EV. Burn this clean fuel to charge a small EV battery

The problem is cost to produce it from renewables using electrolysis. That is being worked on to make it quicker and cheaper, which Ive already explained a few times, how.

Delphinus

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#2260002 18-Jun-2019 09:20

tdgeek:

You are talking Hydrogen in liquid form. Where it has to be stored at pressure so that it doesn't boil, which is roughly -200C. This means its a problem transporting it and its a problem storing it. H2 is gas, that can be stored and piped as it is now. It would need a change in piping as the atoms are smaller, so top leaks. Other than that use it to heat or cook, replacing your existing LPG heating and cooking. use it in your car, replacing the LPG you currently use. It is more intensive than petrol, so unlike LPG which uses more for the same energy, H2 is more potent so uses less. You can also use it in an EV. Burn this clean fuel to charge a small EV battery

What pressure do you propose storing and piping the gas? In reticulated pipes and in vehicles?

I don't understand why you would dig up the country and replace pipes everywhere, to run H2 gas around the place, when there is an existing energy distribution network - the electrical grid.

tdgeek:

The problem is cost to produce it from renewables using electrolysis. That is being worked on to make it quicker and cheaper, which Ive already explained a few times, how.

Can you please cite some sources demonstrating measurable improvements in electrolysis, that expect it to be affordable in 3-4 years? Most of what I'm finding is research papers and not a lot in production or close to it.

I'm comparing with batteries which are expected to be hitting the affordable crossover point in 2022. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost

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#2260009 18-Jun-2019 09:32

Delphinus:

What pressure do you propose storing and piping the gas? In reticulated pipes and in vehicles?

I don't understand why you would dig up the country and replace pipes everywhere, to run H2 gas around the place, when there is an existing energy distribution network - the electrical grid.

Can you please cite some sources demonstrating measurable improvements in electrolysis, that expect it to be affordable in 3-4 years? Most of what I'm finding is research papers and not a lot in production or close to it.

I'm comparing with batteries which are expected to be hitting the affordable crossover point in 2022. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-12/electric-vehicle-battery-shrinks-and-so-does-the-total-cost

Ask the UK Government, and their science community, they want to replace natural gas with H2.

Stop making stuff up. Where did I say in 3-4 years the electrolysis and affordability problem will be solved? This is becoming a waste of time discussion if you need to stoop that low. If your bias is so great that you dont want to look at other green energy sources, then no point discussing.

Crossover point? I could buy a Leaf or a sporty and hot 370Z for the same price, get back to me on the crossover.

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#2260024 18-Jun-2019 10:08

tdgeek: Crossover point? I could buy a Leaf or a sporty and hot 370Z for the same price, get back to me on the crossover.

A Leaf vs a 370Z? Mmm, that's not quite a crossover point for me.

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