Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

frednz

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#251173 11-Jun-2019 20:31

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/news/hyundai-s-high-tech-hydrogen-powered-nexo-confirmed-for-fieldays/

Extracts from the above:

Hyundai New Zealand is using the opening of Fieldays tomorrow to reveal this country’s first zero emissions hydrogen powered SUV, the all-new Nexo.

The Nexo is Hyundai Motor Company’s second-generation of commercialised fuel cell electric vehicle; it’s a first for New Zealand.

The Nexo has an on-board electric motor that produces 120kW of power and 395Nm of torque drawing power from an under-bonnet fuel cell stack, which combines oxygen from the surrounding air with hydrogen from the SUV’s high-pressure storage tanks.

The result is electricity to power the motor and charge the battery.

With full tanks of hydrogen on board, Nexo is capable of travelling 660km before it needs to refuel, which takes just a few minutes.

Sinclair didn’t know when the Nexo would be available for sale here.

“Ultimately it depends on New Zealand’s ability to provide the infrastructure for the hydrogen fuelling stations.

“New Zealand has an abundance of renewable electricity that could be used to produce hydrogen in a sustainable way so we are working closely with the New Zealand Hydrogen Association towards a solution.”

It will certainly be interesting to follow the progress of hydrogen vehicles in New Zealand. With a range of 660km and being able to refuel in just a few minutes, fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) could represent the future of motoring.

A report on Seven Sharp tonight introduced the Hyundai Nexo:

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/seven-sharp/clips/take-a-spin-in-one-of-just-two-zero-emission-hyundai-nexo-s-in-new-zealand

The advantages and disadvantages of hydrogen fuel cells are discussed here:

https://futureofworking.com/10-advantages-and-disadvantages-of-hydrogen-fuel-cells/

So what do you think of hydrogen powered vehicles, are they the future of motoring in New Zealand?

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#2256355 11-Jun-2019 21:01

They could be perfect for NZ: make the hydrogen using clean hydro or geothermal energy, maybe even make a few new hydro plants and export "green" hydrogen.

The extended range vs EV will take away a lot of the arguments against EVs, especially for remoter parts of NZ. And the much higher possible duty cycle will make them more feasible for commercial vehicles, freight, buses etc etc

afe66

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#2256389 11-Jun-2019 21:57

I fear the reality is that the hydrogen will be made from cheapest source which will be industrial modification of low quality fossil fuels which currently not economic.

The fuel might be clean to burn but it will come from dirty sources.

If we are going to use clean hydro or wind to generate electricity to split water, I'd rather that power is transmitted via power lines to batteries at my home or car rather than create a fuel which would need to be trucked around the country to essentially petrol stations requiring storage infrastructure

Aredwood

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#2256395 11-Jun-2019 22:16

There would be a massive cost to cover the whole of NZ with hydrogen refueling stations. With EVs not having a public charger close to your house is not a deal breaker. As you can charge your EV at home.

Hydrogen has a very low energy density. Therefore it doesn't completely solve the problems of range between refueling stops. Especially for large trucks.

You would still need to invest lots of money in building more electricity generation and transmission assets. No savings there from hydrogen.

No point in using grid electricity for making hydrogen in NZ (yet). As we still use coal, Natural gas, and diesel for electricity generation. Sure, only around 20% in total from fossil fuels. But that 20% is still a large number. And lots more renewable generation is already needed for EVs, substitute heating and hot water that is currently done with fossil fuels. Allow for population growth, allow for improved home heating standards.

Hydrogen stations only exist in California due to large government subsidies. Which were implemented long before current EV battery technology existed. And were designed to discourage EVs. As the oil companies dont want the refueling station model to disappear. Which is what will happen if EVs become the dominant type of car.

Delphinus

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#2256396 11-Jun-2019 22:18

afe66:

If we are going to use clean hydro or wind to generate electricity to split water, I'd rather that power is transmitted via power lines to batteries at my home or car rather than create a fuel which would need to be trucked around the country to essentially petrol stations requiring storage infrastructure

This. Because:

Scott3

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#2256398 11-Jun-2019 22:28

In short, I view them as a distraction.

Hydrogen car's were basically the auto industries way to keep concerns about their products emissions from causing to many problems with regulators... Don't worry about that, we will solve the emissions issue when we roll out hydrogen cars in a decade.

Hydrogen cars were a decade away for, and the 30+ years... When the first viable electric car's (kicked off by the tesla roadster in 2008) came to market it was time for the auto maker's to put up or shut up, and they did with the Toyota Mirai, Hyundai Tucosn FCEV, and Honda Clarity launched between 2014 and 2016. Unfortunately the offerings weren't compelling.

The following are deal-beraking issues for hydrogen as a vehicle fuel

Industrial hydrogen production is already mature. Cheapest way to do it via steam reforming natural gas. Not ideal given this is ment to be a green technology.
Hydrogen lobby often pushes making hydrogen from from water via electrolysis using green electricity. This is extremely inefficient compared to just charging a battery car.
Hydrogen is very hard to handle - the small molecule size means all pressure components in pipelines etc need to be special.
Hydrogen is difficult to store. Either you need cryogenic temperatures, or massive & super high pressure tanks.
- The above means hydrogen cars get poor ranges. The mirai has 122.4L of 70Mpa tanks, and still only gets a 500km range, a major issue given that filling stations are rear, you can't fill at home and many filling stations in California can only half fill cars. Electric vehicles can beat this range with the advantage of being able to fill up in your garage.
- This also means that freighting fuel is a major issue. A hydrogen tanker truck can carry a much lower number of car's worth of fuel compared to a petrol tanker.
Hydrogen fueling infrastructure is super expensive. Where as electric car infrastructure piggybacks on our existing grid so is much cheaper, and the ability to charge at home removes the need for much infrastructure.
Hydrogen car's aren't even cheap to run. In many markets the makers sold the cars with years of free fuel included to mask the cost of the fuel from the public (and to avoid the difficulty with accurately metering hydrogen).
Hydrogen fuel stacks don't have a high output, so need to feed a substantial buffer battery, functioning as a series hybrid. As such you still have to deal with a traction battery etc. Might as well just make it bigger and ditch all they hydrogen stuff

Given the above I feel that hydrogen cars are simply a distraction for the poorly informed

I am gutted that a big chunk of our taxpayer money has gone to a hydrogen manufacture project in Taranaki (using fossil fuel as the input...).

If we stop taking about car's I have different feelings. Hydrogen is great as a rocket fuel. It is also great in applications where it can be stored under cryogenic temperatures as a liquid and energy density per weigtht (but not per volume) is important.

wellygary

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#2256399 11-Jun-2019 22:36

I think the best point was made in a UK review I read

“Buyers will get a lot for their money. Each car costs 10 times more to build than what it sells for”
https://www.driving.co.uk/car-reviews/2018-hyundai-nexo-review/

Let that sink in for a while, they cost over $800k to make....

frankv

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#2256422 12-Jun-2019 07:21

Wondering why they use hydrogen as a fuel, instead of some more commonly available fuel? IIRC, fuel cells can run on alcohol, for example.

old3eyes

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#2256427 12-Jun-2019 07:38

The $91 grand price tag is a bit of a killer.

Regards,

Old3eyes

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#2256428 12-Jun-2019 07:41

frankv:
Wondering why they use hydrogen as a fuel, instead of some more commonly available fuel? IIRC, fuel cells can run on alcohol, for example.

I think CO2 is a byproduct of alcohol fuel cells. I guess if the alcohol is produced from biomass it's at least not from fossil sources.

Edit: $91K gets you the better Tesla Model 3 and the quoted six minute refuel time is negated if you have to drive half an hour to the nearest hydrogen station.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

GV27

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#2256435 12-Jun-2019 08:00

I'm not sure entrenching our dependence on fossil fueling stations which will require modifications and a return on that cost of capital is the most progressive way forward.

I suspect we are only still talking about hydrogen because of some very specific Govt incentives in Japan, Korea and California which are more hangovers than anything else, whereas similar incentives do not exist for general battery tech because it goes into almost everything.

The fact they exist is a good pull for the 'but hydrogen' crowd who are actually arguing that we shouldn't do anything today because of what might happen tomorrow. It's entirely disingenuous.

Obraik

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#2256445 12-Jun-2019 08:30

After a hydrogen refuelling station explosion in Norway they've had to shut down all stations in Norway for an investigation while Toyota and Hyundai has put a halt on car sales. Toyota is also offering loan vehicles during the shutdown.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/11/hydrogen-station-explodes-toyota-halts-sales-fuel-cell-cars/

Looking to buy a Tesla? Use my referral link and we both get credits

frednz

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#2256451 12-Jun-2019 08:33

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel-cell-battery-electric-vehicles-technology-rundown/

From the above:

At its core, a hydrogen car is an electric vehicle with a small onboard battery that is continuously charged from a hydrogen fuel cell that pulls stored hydrogen gas, mixes it with oxygen from the atmosphere, and runs it through a proton exchange membrane, releasing electricity along the way. The only byproduct of this process is water, making the vehicle essentially just an electric vehicle that gets its power from a different type of onboard battery drivetrain. I’ve driven both popular models for CleanTechnica — the Toyota Mirai and the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell — and found that they both drove and operated like “normal” vehicles, which is great.

This article refers to a "small onboard battery" that is continuously charged from a hydrogen fuel cell. This seems a lot better than having a huge weight of batteries that takes ages to charge with electricity. I wonder how long this small onboard battery would last before it needs replacement?

tdgeek

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#2256453 12-Jun-2019 08:44

Its well worth looking at. Is Hydrogen more common than Lithium? There are one billion passengers cars in the world, can we easily manufacturer 64 billion kWh worth of batteries? And replace all that 10 to 15 years later ad infinitum. It takes carbon energy to make batteries, so the EV carbon foot print is ongoing.

H has its issues but advantages over EV. I don't feel the globe can manage all cars being EV

tdgeek

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#2256455 12-Jun-2019 08:51

Obraik: After a hydrogen refuelling station explosion in Norway they've had to shut down all stations in Norway for an investigation while Toyota and Hyundai has put a halt on car sales. Toyota is also offering loan vehicles during the shutdown.

https://electrek.co/2019/06/11/hydrogen-station-explodes-toyota-halts-sales-fuel-cell-cars/

You forgot to mention that the cause is as yet unknown

Toyota insists that this is not changing their view on fuel cell hydrogen vehicles:

“This does not change our view of hydrogen, and it is important for us to point out that hydrogen cars are at least as safe as ordinary cars. The hydrogen tanks themselves are so robust that you can shoot them with a gun without knocking them.”

Hyundai, the only other automaker delivering fuel cell vehicles in Norway, has made similar announcements and statements."

FF explode too.

Can we make 64 billion kWh of batteries? To power the globes passenger cars? Do we have enough resources? Can we do this every 15 years?

Lithium and other metals are finite resources

BlueShift

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#2256457 12-Jun-2019 08:52

frednz:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel-cell-battery-electric-vehicles-technology-rundown/

From the above:

At its core, a hydrogen car is an electric vehicle with a small onboard battery that is continuously charged from a hydrogen fuel cell that pulls stored hydrogen gas, mixes it with oxygen from the atmosphere, and runs it through a proton exchange membrane, releasing electricity along the way. The only byproduct of this process is water, making the vehicle essentially just an electric vehicle that gets its power from a different type of onboard battery drivetrain. I’ve driven both popular models for CleanTechnica — the Toyota Mirai and the Honda Clarity Fuel Cell — and found that they both drove and operated like “normal” vehicles, which is great.

This article refers to a "small onboard battery" that is continuously charged from a hydrogen fuel cell. This seems a lot better than having a huge weight of batteries that takes ages to charge with electricity. I wonder how long this small onboard battery would last before it needs replacement?

True, but you're replacing a huge weight of batteries with a huge weight of ultra-high pressure gas storage tank. Hydrogen is a slippery wee molecule, and the tanks to hold it need to be stronger and solider than your average LPG cylinder.

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