Why is driver training being ignored? Aw

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tdgeek

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#2157886 11-Jan-2019 08:22

Geektastic:

It relates to this, I suspect:

"If a rider passes their motorcycle test (A1) at 17 years old they are restricted to a 125cc motorcycle producing no more than 11kW (14.8bhp) for two years.

At 19 years of age a rider who has been riding on a full A1 licence for two years can take a further practical test on a motorcycle of at least 395cc producing between 25kW (33.5bhp) and 35kW (46.9bhp). On passing this test, the rider can ride a motorcycle in category A2.

Two years after passing the A2 test a rider (21 years and over) can take a further test on a motorcycle of at least 495cc and producing at least 40kW (53.6bhp). Following successful completion of this test the rider can ride a motorcycle of any capacity."

Edit: that's the UK rule which is in accordance with EU rules.

I guess that's safer, but expensive if you have to keep upgrading a bike, or don't want to buy rusty dungers to get you through these levels. IMO if you can show in a test that you have full control and capability of the 50cc or 750cc bike that should be enough

NzBeagle

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#2157887 11-Jan-2019 08:23

tdgeek:

NzBeagle:

And this is why I think it was wise for the change in law. Jumping from a 250cc (low hp) to anything you liked once you get your full, can be dangerous.

Also, I don't see how this process couldn't be applied to car licenses, although, like bike licenses, there would be many who just ignore and ride/drive what they want.

Hard to say. Is a 650 more dangerous than a 250? You would think so. I had bikes when I was a teen. Got back into it in 2011, got a Ninja 250. Too slow, traded at 2200km to a 650. The 250 was a nightmare in strong crosswinds, the 650 ploughs through it, that's a biggie. Doesnt take long to get used to the size.

As to cars, a 1600cc is slow, but another can be quick, plus power to weight. Hard to see it being setup to be accurate for safety. Have compulsory safety training, as while you will never stop idiots, everyone will at least have knowledge of how to handle a car that's about to go out of control, or has

I was more referring to the power differential, you get used to the 2011 Ninja 250, and then jump on the 650, they're quite different. Even the LAMS approved version, with not much difference in hp, you will find it plenty more rideable at various engine speeds.

Sure, for cars, you're right, but it could be a similar approach, only specific makes / models permitted. Agree that this is in lieu of more suitable training, so not necessarily an answer, but the both approaches at the same time might not hurt either. Also, on a bike, you can probably get in significantly more harm than in a car, during the learning process.

tdgeek

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#2157889 11-Jan-2019 08:28

NzBeagle:

tdgeek:

NzBeagle:

And this is why I think it was wise for the change in law. Jumping from a 250cc (low hp) to anything you liked once you get your full, can be dangerous.

Also, I don't see how this process couldn't be applied to car licenses, although, like bike licenses, there would be many who just ignore and ride/drive what they want.

Hard to say. Is a 650 more dangerous than a 250? You would think so. I had bikes when I was a teen. Got back into it in 2011, got a Ninja 250. Too slow, traded at 2200km to a 650. The 250 was a nightmare in strong crosswinds, the 650 ploughs through it, that's a biggie. Doesnt take long to get used to the size.

As to cars, a 1600cc is slow, but another can be quick, plus power to weight. Hard to see it being setup to be accurate for safety. Have compulsory safety training, as while you will never stop idiots, everyone will at least have knowledge of how to handle a car that's about to go out of control, or has

I was more referring to the power differential, you get used to the 2011 Ninja 250, and then jump on the 650, they're quite different. Even the LAMS approved version, with not much difference in hp, you will find it plenty more rideable at various engine speeds.

Sure, for cars, you're right, but it could be a similar approach, only specific makes / models permitted. Agree that this is in lieu of more suitable training, so not necessarily an answer, but the both approaches at the same time might not hurt either. Also, on a bike, you can probably get in significantly more harm than in a car, during the learning process.

Yes, any new approach is always a good thing

Geektastic

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#2157933 11-Jan-2019 09:37

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

It relates to this, I suspect:

"If a rider passes their motorcycle test (A1) at 17 years old they are restricted to a 125cc motorcycle producing no more than 11kW (14.8bhp) for two years.

At 19 years of age a rider who has been riding on a full A1 licence for two years can take a further practical test on a motorcycle of at least 395cc producing between 25kW (33.5bhp) and 35kW (46.9bhp). On passing this test, the rider can ride a motorcycle in category A2.

Two years after passing the A2 test a rider (21 years and over) can take a further test on a motorcycle of at least 495cc and producing at least 40kW (53.6bhp). Following successful completion of this test the rider can ride a motorcycle of any capacity."

Edit: that's the UK rule which is in accordance with EU rules.

I guess that's safer, but expensive if you have to keep upgrading a bike, or don't want to buy rusty dungers to get you through these levels. IMO if you can show in a test that you have full control and capability of the 50cc or 750cc bike that should be enough

I was more referring to why the 33 bhp restricted version of the bike existed rather than whether it is a safer method.

There is a method called Direct Access where you can skip the steps by learning and being tested on a full size bike if you are over a certain age, but you can only ride that when accompanied by an instructor so cannot practice in between lessons.

tdgeek

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#2157945 11-Jan-2019 09:47

Geektastic:

I was more referring to why the 33 bhp restricted version of the bike existed rather than whether it is a safer method.

There is a method called Direct Access where you can skip the steps by learning and being tested on a full size bike if you are over a certain age, but you can only ride that when accompanied by an instructor so cannot practice in between lessons.

Silly. Cannot practice. The rider needs to have lessons as the practice, plus age is not a decider of capability.

Coil

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#2157958 11-Jan-2019 09:59

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

I was more referring to why the 33 bhp restricted version of the bike existed rather than whether it is a safer method.

There is a method called Direct Access where you can skip the steps by learning and being tested on a full size bike if you are over a certain age, but you can only ride that when accompanied by an instructor so cannot practice in between lessons.

plus age is not a decider of capability.

Yeah, I could drift a car better than most people in this country at the age of 15 :).

New World

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tdgeek

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#2157967 11-Jan-2019 10:04

Coil:

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

I was more referring to why the 33 bhp restricted version of the bike existed rather than whether it is a safer method.

There is a method called Direct Access where you can skip the steps by learning and being tested on a full size bike if you are over a certain age, but you can only ride that when accompanied by an instructor so cannot practice in between lessons.

plus age is not a decider of capability.

Yeah, I could drift a car better than most people in this country at the age of 15 :).

My only drifting was feeding out, in the wet, on a hill!

Geektastic

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#2158036 11-Jan-2019 11:30

tdgeek:
Geektastic:

I was more referring to why the 33 bhp restricted version of the bike existed rather than whether it is a safer method.

There is a method called Direct Access where you can skip the steps by learning and being tested on a full size bike if you are over a certain age, but you can only ride that when accompanied by an instructor so cannot practice in between lessons.

Silly. Cannot practice. The rider needs to have lessons as the practice, plus age is not a decider of capability.

Here's the full rule:

Direct Access Scheme (DAS)
The Direct Access Scheme allows riders aged 19 years to take a test to obtain a full A2 licence without having held an A1 licence for two years. Similarly riders aged 24 years or older can take a test to obtain a full (category A) motorcycle licence without previously holding a licence for a smaller motorcycle for two years. They have to pass the two-part motorcycle practical test on a machine of at least 40 kW (53.6 bhp) and if they pass they can ride any size of motorcycle.

While practising for direct access, they can use any size of motorcycle bigger than a learner motorbike but must

Be accompanied by a qualified approved trainer riding another motorbike and in radio contact with them
Wear fluorescent or reflective safety clothing while being supervised
Have L plates (D plates in Wales) fitted on their motorcycle
All other provisional licence restrictions apply.

frankv

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#2158045 11-Jan-2019 11:37

NzBeagle:

Sure, for cars, you're right, but it could be a similar approach, only specific makes / models permitted.

The issue with cars is that you're more likely to drive a car that doesn't belong to you than a bike that doesn't. So, typically, the first car you drive is your parents', then maybe your employer's.

Restricting learners to certain makes/models/horsepower/performance would in most cases result in them not actually driving during the period of their restricted license, making the whole graduated license pointless.

tdgeek

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#2158054 11-Jan-2019 12:01

Geektastic:

Here's the full rule:

Direct Access Scheme (DAS)
The Direct Access Scheme allows riders aged 19 years to take a test to obtain a full A2 licence without having held an A1 licence for two years. Similarly riders aged 24 years or older can take a test to obtain a full (category A) motorcycle licence without previously holding a licence for a smaller motorcycle for two years. They have to pass the two-part motorcycle practical test on a machine of at least 40 kW (53.6 bhp) and if they pass they can ride any size of motorcycle.

While practising for direct access, they can use any size of motorcycle bigger than a learner motorbike but must

Be accompanied by a qualified approved trainer riding another motorbike and in radio contact with them
Wear fluorescent or reflective safety clothing while being supervised
Have L plates (D plates in Wales) fitted on their motorcycle
All other provisional licence restrictions apply.

So its effectively driving lessons? But they call it practice. I guess not cheap too. But a good idea as long as its a bit more than the approved trainer making sure he hasn't fallen off. I cannot tell as he needs to be an approved trainer but they say its practice

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