Nissan LEAF - General

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#2061878 24-Jul-2018 18:37

Thanks Steve

I will wait another week or so and contact my Dealer to see if they have any plans Then I will get in touch with EV Taupo if no progress is being made.

RUKI

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#2061888 24-Jul-2018 18:59

FYI: extract from official Nissan document, provided by the 3-rd party: quote

"Investigations have confirmed that due to an inaccurate coefficient used in the calculation for battery state of heath, the battery state of heath and consequently the Distance to empty values as indicated to the customer are lower than the actual values. ....Affected vehicles can be identified via the eNEWS system from 4th June 2018.......

A production countermeasure was introduced from the following VIN and build date:

VIN: SJNFAAZE0U6075602 Build date: 07/12/17..."end of quote.

Using forensic tools it was discovered by the 3-rd party that the following LBC firmware versions were impacted and the applicable update for those LBC has been issued: 4NR4A(B); 4NR5A(B) with corresponding versions to have same number with C instead of A(B) after update.

It is also being analyzed and confirmed that that it was not just one option "to suit all" and the SOP described which versions suits which of those four.

On the JDM front - none of my few contacts on the ground in Japan has seen any info in the Japanese blogs about relevant communication. One Japanese Professional in the industry visiting Auckland was kind to offer his time to sit together on ~7-8 August and do another round of searches. If campaign were to happen in Japan - it would've be known to bloggers.

In meanwhile I am collecting data from 30 kWh owners about all firmware options they observe in their cars. No intention to create or offer home-made upgrade. Main purpose is to add to my arsenal of tools "How to Spot Non-Genuine Battery" info about genuine packs.

Yesterday we had a quick chat with another Battery Rebuild Pro's and agreed that there will be NO warranty provided for battery assembly with patched LBC. It is personal choice as long as you've made an informed decision to do modifications or not to your car.

So far we have observed this:

Japanese 4NN4A (many samples with screenshots) has been changed to 4NNAB (one sample only) in September 2016 and we have one screenshot 4NN6A with battery date reading November 2017. Whether it is a matter of continuous improvements we do not know.

P.S. Steve's UK Leaf AFAIK was upgraded with official firmware number available in New Zealand, so no issues here... That is the only upgrade to official version I am aware of.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

gzt

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#2061894 24-Jul-2018 19:19

I see. Tldr; Official firmware update issued for UK models. No official firmware update issued for Japan models at this time. Is that correct?

leaflearner

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#2061896 24-Jul-2018 19:24

frednz:

"Henrik Moller of Flip the Fleet says “there is as yet insufficient information available to form any reliable scientific conclusion about whether Nissan’s instrumentation error is a sufficient explanation for the observed declines in reported battery health of 30kWh Leafs”.

Because it was mainly "Flip the Fleet" research that first brought all this to the attention of Leaf owners, I'm not sure why people are prepared to pay $250 to have the software update done when the scientists aren't convinced that this will "fix" the problem of the alleged fast degradation of the batteries of 30 kWh Leafs.

And the software update isn't even issued or endorsed by Nissan NZ, so I agree with your comment that "Maybe it's taking a chance accepting the firmware update from a non-Nissan dealer".

I think it's even more of a chance buying a 30 kWh Leaf at this point in time, even if the software patch has been applied by dealers. I would want to wait until the Motor Industry Assn is happy that the firmware update is in fact safe. They must have some solid evidence to say that applying the update at this time is risky: “A software fix designed for the US or UK market will not work for vehicles made for and sourced from Japan. Worse, it could seriously damage the vehicle’s controller that manages charge flows.”

It was taking bigger chances driving a car that had severely reduced its predicted range in the eight months I had owned it!

Flip the Fleet will indeed have more to say in due course. FtF co-founder with Moller, Dima Ivanov, says: "Great to hear of your results so far - sounds encouraging! I hope this update is indeed what it's made out to be. Indeed, your car is very special to us in that it's the ONLY car so far to be upgraded where we've had the EV Black Box running prior to the upgrade. It will be very interesting to keep an eye on it, assuming both you and Vasily are of-course happy to keep it going. Once we have enough data to make some conclusions, we will of-course update the website."

Data from my car is constantly transmitted to FtF, so they'll be able to make conclusions re "before" and "after" in a matter of weeks. Meanwhile, the email I sent to the MIA awaits answer. It read as follows:

CEO David Crawford has apparently issued a warning about the only firmware update which is currently available to NZ owners of the privately imported Nissan Leaf 30kWh model. At EV Talk he is quoted as follows:

“The critical point is that the software fix is specific to the market the vehicle was produced for,” Crawford says. “A software fix designed for the US or UK market will not work for vehicles made for and sourced from Japan. Worse, it could seriously damage the vehicle’s controller that manages charge flows.”

Mr Crawford's concerns have also been communicated "to other government and industry organisations." Please can you list these?

Please could the MIA also amplify on the assertions? In particular, are they made on the basis of Mr Crawford's personal experience, technical expertise, or specialist knowledge in the EV field? If not, on whose opinion is he acting? Can he quote actual cases of 30kWh Leafs being "bricked" by the update, or where, as he puts it, the update "will not work for vehicles made for and sourced from Japan"?

The problem of many of the 2016-2017 30kWh Leafs' dashboard clusters indicating apparent accelerated battery degradation has been causing widespread concern in the media (e.g. Radio New Zealand, The Listener) since March. Any authoritative contributions to the debate would be welcome. The Leaf remains far and away the most represented EV on NZ roads.

Leaf Learner

Elliemay

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#2061900 24-Jul-2018 19:28

RUKI:
FYI: extract from official Nissan document, provided by the 3-rd party: quote

"Investigations have confirmed that due to an inaccurate coefficient used in the calculation for battery state of heath, the battery state of heath and consequently the Distance to empty values as indicated to the customer are lower than the actual values. ....Affected vehicles can be identified via the eNEWS system from 4th June 2018.......

A production countermeasure was introduced from the following VIN and build date:

VIN: SJNFAAZE0U6075602 Build date: 07/12/17..."end of quote.

Using forensic tools it was discovered by the 3-rd party that the following LBC firmware versions were impacted and the applicable update for those LBC has been issued: 4NR4A(B); 4NR5A(B) with corresponding versions to have same number with C instead of A(B) after update.

It is also being analyzed and confirmed that that it was not just one option "to suit all" and the SOP described which versions suits which of those four.

On the JDM front - none of my few contacts on the ground in Japan has seen any info in the Japanese blogs about relevant communication. One Japanese Professional in the industry visiting Auckland was kind to offer his time to sit together on ~7-8 August and do another round of searches. If campaign were to happen in Japan - it would've be known to bloggers.

In meanwhile I am collecting data from 30 kWh owners about all firmware options they observe in their cars. No intention to create or offer home-made upgrade. Main purpose is to add to my arsenal of tools "How to Spot Non-Genuine Battery" info about genuine packs.

Yesterday we had a quick chat with another Battery Rebuild Pro's and agreed that there will be NO warranty provided for battery assembly with patched LBC. It is personal choice as long as you've made an informed decision to do modifications or not to your car.

So far we have observed this:

Japanese 4NN4A (many samples with screenshots) has been changed to 4NNAB (one sample only) in September 2016 and we have one screenshot 4NN6A with battery date reading November 2017. Whether it is a matter of continuous improvements we do not know.

P.S. Steve's UK Leaf AFAIK was upgraded with official firmware number available in New Zealand, so no issues here... That is the only upgrade to official version I am aware of.

Ruki, that should be November 2016, not November 2017, for the 4NN6A.

leaflearner

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#2061909 24-Jul-2018 19:50

Linuxluver:

If you don't want to spend $250 then this isn't for you. Keep talking to Nissan. I had no problems paying as Walter has developed a very smooth process and has put in the work to make this easy for everyone else......now.

You're right again ... $250 is the price of a very basic service on an ICE vehicle. City Nissan, Takapuna, will service your Leaf at a website-promotion price of $199. But that service doesn't include very much, and definitely not the "unavailable" firmware upgrade. The dealer who imported my car for me even offered to pay for the upgrade, but I insisted we split the cost 50/50 ... he had been as much duped as myself by the manufacturer's claims. And like everyone else who has bought an EV, $125 has already been recouped many, many times over by not having to pay for petrol, oil changes, filters, etc. etc.

Leaf Learner

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Linuxluver

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#2061921 24-Jul-2018 20:08

leaflearner:

Linuxluver:

If you don't want to spend $250 then this isn't for you. Keep talking to Nissan. I had no problems paying as Walter has developed a very smooth process and has put in the work to make this easy for everyone else......now.

You're right again ... $250 is the price of a very basic service on an ICE vehicle. City Nissan, Takapuna, will service your Leaf at a website-promotion price of $199. But that service doesn't include very much, and definitely not the "unavailable" firmware upgrade. The dealer who imported my car for me even offered to pay for the upgrade, but I insisted we split the cost 50/50 ... he had been as much duped as myself by the manufacturer's claims. And like everyone else who has bought an EV, $125 has already been recouped many, many times over by not having to pay for petrol, oil changes, filters, etc. etc.

Thanks. I agree....I save so much money driving an EV that $250 to sort out a software issue is not an issue for me at all.

Next year I'll be taking on a Tesla Model 3 at some point, hopefully. They will update over the air.....and have a range of at least 400km.

I'm ready for that.

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happyfunball

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Ultimate Geek
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#2061922 24-Jul-2018 20:09

gzt:
happyfunball: I'm scheduled for a software update from GVI in Lower Hutt on Thursday. I'll report what the LeafSpy and practical changes are.

I'm interested to know how they are doing this. Is it UK updates for the UK cars and JDM updates for the JDM cars?

It seems very unlikely to me that the BMS would be different for the same battery. As long as the hardware is the same the software will be too. The software component of the BMS is much more complex and expensive than the hardware. Nissan wouldn’t want multiple software versions as those would all have to be separately produced and tested.

Modern auto manufacturing is all about reusable components.

dunnersdude

162 posts

Master Geek
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#2061923 24-Jul-2018 20:15

Why would there be no update for Japanese Leafs?

happyfunball

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Ultimate Geek
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#2061925 24-Jul-2018 20:20

dunnersdude: Why would there be no update for Japanese Leafs?

Probably because some component of the Software, such as the installer, hasn’t been translated to Japanese yet. The patch was created in the US and then made available in Latin alphabet countries soon after.

I suspect it’s not available in China yet either.

frednz

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#2061949 24-Jul-2018 21:00

leaflearner:

It was taking bigger chances driving a car that had severely reduced its predicted range in the eight months I had owned it!

If the original software was "severely reducing its predicted range", isn't this better than having software that overstates the SOH of the battery and predicted range? I'm very surprised at the major improvements reported by some owners in SOH predictions etc after installing the new software and hope they are in fact correct. If not, perhaps the AA etc might be doing quite a few more rescue jobs for vehicles that have run out of charge in the middle of nowhere?

Thanks for the interesting information you have given about "Flip the Fleet" and your correspondence with MIA. I would think that the MIA is taking a cautious approach and warning people to be very careful before applying "unofficial" software updates to their 30 kWh Leafs. It's then over to owners to decide whether to take the risk of using this software. Because the original software seems to be very deficient, I think Nissan should make an official upgrade available to all 30 kWh Leaf owners free of charge (it's the least they can do)! Owners shouldn't have to pay $250 to correct a major error on Nissan's part.

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Linuxluver

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#2061962 24-Jul-2018 21:47

frednz:

...

If the original software was "severely reducing its predicted range", isn't this better than having software that overstates the SOH of the battery and predicted range? I'm very surprised at the major improvements reported by some owners in SOH predictions etc after installing the new software and hope they are in fact correct. If not, perhaps the AA etc might be doing quite a few more rescue jobs for vehicles that have run out of charge in the middle of nowhere?

Thanks for the interesting information you have given about "Flip the Fleet" and your correspondence with MIA. I would think that the MIA is taking a cautious approach and warning people to be very careful before applying "unofficial" software updates to their 30 kWh Leafs. It's then over to owners to decide whether to take the risk of using this software. Because the original software seems to be very deficient, I think Nissan should make an official upgrade available to all 30 kWh Leaf owners free of charge (it's the least they can do)! Owners shouldn't have to pay $250 to correct a major error on Nissan's part.

The $250 is for a 3rd-party installed patch.

People can wait for Nissan......but in New Zealand, where these cars aren't even sold by Nissan, it could be a long wait.

At least now they (UK LEAF owners, in particular) have the option of not waiting, thanks to Walter Larason.

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leaflearner

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#2061970 24-Jul-2018 21:58

frednz:

leaflearner:

It was taking bigger chances driving a car that had severely reduced its predicted range in the eight months I had owned it!

If the original software was "severely reducing its predicted range", isn't this better than having software that overstates the SOH of the battery and predicted range? I'm very surprised at the major improvements reported by some owners in SOH predictions etc after installing the new software and hope they are in fact correct. If not, perhaps the AA etc might be doing quite a few more rescue jobs for vehicles that have run out of charge in the middle of nowhere?

Thanks for the interesting information you have given about "Flip the Fleet" and your correspondence with MIA. I would think that the MIA is taking a cautious approach and warning people to be very careful before applying "unofficial" software updates to their 30 kWh Leafs. It's then over to owners to decide whether to take the risk of using this software. Because the original software seems to be very deficient, I think Nissan should make an official upgrade available to all 30 kWh Leaf owners free of charge (it's the least they can do)! Owners shouldn't have to pay $250 to correct a major error on Nissan's part.

Who says I now have software (firmware to be precise) that "overstates the SOH of the battery and predicted range"? The FtF Black Box doesn't; I'm not going to run the car's state of charge to 0% to find out; nor am I going to employ a workshop to pull the battery out and find its health is just fine, as I read was happening in the US (under warranty there of course) before the release of the update.

You're absolutely right in what you say about Nissan, and I do resent that NZ owners are having to pay for the company's R&D shortcomings, but I won't delve into the financial and maybe political reasons why this is happening. They have been canvassed over several months this year elsewhere. Personally, I've even discussed it with partly sympathetic Nissan dealerships, and rightly or wrongly reached the conclusion that Nissan do not value their brand sufficiently to alter their hands off/no responsibility stance in NZ any time soon. So yes, that leaves me and others with a bill if they want the use and value of their cars restored, but as I've already posted here, the cost is not excessive compared with the savings of non-petrol motoring on an established, and continuing, monthly basis.

Hopefully, we may not need it, but you might be gracious enough to wish us all luck.

Leaf Learner

gulfa

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#2062011 25-Jul-2018 07:54

received an email from AutoLink they are going to the update mid August same price. Good to see other dealers moving on this

Elliemay

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#2062013 25-Jul-2018 08:06

Linuxluver:

Newer 2017 LEAFs - made roughly after mid-July 2017 - already have this update from the factory. My car was made in late 2015 or very early 2016....so needed it.

Hi Linuxluver,

my JDM November 2016 battery LEAF (first registered Japan mid December 2016) has the latest version of the firmware out of the factory. Confirmed by GVI and Walter Larason.

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