EV (electric vehicle) News and Discussion

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#1647399 7-Oct-2016 17:40

ACC are currently seeking feedback on their payments. Can I encourage everyone here to share their thoughts on this subject with ACC - I've attached mine below.

http://acc.nz/carlevies

"The vehicle levy should be used to incentive the purchase and usage of safe and healthy cars. Instead of giving a blanket discount, we should sale the ACC levy based on impact. For example fuel emissions make a huge difference to the health of New Zealanders. By reducing the levy for electric cars and increasing the levy for fossil fuel cars, we better cover the boarder health benefits of polluting vehicles and encourage the public to make the smart healthy choice to purchase an electric vehicle or a vehicle with better fuel economy. Finally there are different safety ratings for cars. A better rating and a safer car should be cheaper than a car with a lower safety rating. "

Linuxluver

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#1647442 7-Oct-2016 18:11

WyleECoyoteNZ:

The Nissan Leaf, BMW i3 and new Renault Zoe are perfect for City driving, and short trips, but at the moment that's (as far as I can tell) that's all they are good for.

The EVs that can fast charge have an edge over the ones that can't. One could be forgiven for thinking the makers of the ones that CAN'T fast charge did so in order to prevent them being anything but city cars. This is why EV-lovers are somewhat wary of the efforts of the major car makers....and tend to favour Tesla, who aren't compromised by billions of dollars worth of internal combustion engine based intellectual property and fixed plant.

That said, a car like the Nissan LEAF does a pretty good job being a travelling car even in its 'usual' 24kw battery current form. I've driven mine from Auckland to Kawakawa, to Rawene, to Opononi, to Dargaville and back to Auckland on the same day. Northland has many fast chargers fairly close together. You can drive 100kph (anything more else is illegal, right?) from charger to charger and you might need to charge for only 10 mins.

Other trips I've done recently were Auckland -> Thames -> Tauranga -> Rotorua -> Hamilton -> Auckland - between breakfast and supper.

Perfectly do-able. The LEAF could easily handle 3 people and a suitcase each. Four if they have backpacks.

These mentioned EV's aren't really designed to pack a family of 4 into, with luggage, and go away on a holiday road trip. For that, you'd need a second vehicle, either traditional ICE, hybrid or a expensive Telsa. And that's great if you can afford to run 2 cars. Not everyone can.

We've found the LEAF to be quite roomy. But a Tesla Model X would be more like what you need, I suppose.

And now for a question. Or two.

The EV charging station that exist around the country, are these free, or do you have to pay a small fee to use them?

If they are free to charge, and as more and more EV's take to the roads, do you see them continuing to be free to use?

If they are free, the EV driver may not be paying, but somebody is. So if EV's become more and more popular, and say a big retail complex like Queensgate Hutt City (who for arguments sake has 1000 car parking spaces) converts 10% of these to EV charging spots I doubt they'd continue to be free parking.

And my final question, is NZ infrastructure in place to support a growing EV fleet? Say in 10 years time the EV fleet is around 40,000 vehicles (maybe a bit unrealistic) and they are being used for commuting, are we producing enough electricity to support a large volume of demand at peak times?

EVs charge at home 90% of the time, so the number of charging stations compared to petrol stations isn't a useful comparison....and you didn't make that comparison, I'm setting it as a basic premise around charging and related cost.

Similarly, the cost of charging is also incurred 90% at home and is VERY cheap. So when thinking about for-pay charging stations, remember they are there only to facilitate extraordinary use.....a long day or trips between towns. So the $5 or $10 I might pay for a charge will be an occasional thing.....not an every day thing....and even if it is every day it won't be until after I've used by first, cheap charge from home.

I know it's hard to break old habits of thought around driving. I've been feeling my way along in my first 4 months as an EV driver. It's been fascinating to see my ICE-driver behaviours and assumptions frequently turned on their head.

The cost of charging for EVs is going to evolve. Many sites are free for the purpose of encouraging people to drive EVs. It's been successful up to a point. Nothing like purchase subsidies or tax credits, but it has helped. The sites that are for pay certainly aren't making money today.....and they are also there to enable and encourage use of EVs....and they are. Shopping Malls put them into enhance their envorinmental credentials. People who think about the environment and act on those values tend to be better educated and have more more whether they drive an EV or not. Supporting those values attracts those higher value customers.

People ask me what EVs can do compared to "normal" cars. I've come to think of the answer as being something like: "Everything.....an EV can do pretty much everything, but differently. It's more a matter of can the DRIVER successfully adapt their driving habits to a different set of requirements."

People who buy EVs and go through experience know what I'm talking about. The "EV grin" is real.

EVs can be strategic power storage grid components

Another element that will be of strategic value is the potential to use an EV as a defacto powerwall for a home. This is why Telsa is moving rapidly on solar panels, powerwalls and electric vehicles. The potential is there is run your house for hours or even days off a large EV battery....and still have enough power to drive around. If charged via solar, this is even more valuable. But people running the grid are beginning to think of a massive distributed network of EV batteries plugged in at various times during the day with potential to support fluctuations in generation by renewable sources. If the wind slows down there is a momentary gap in supply, the grid could, conceivably, draw on a million EV batteries to fill the gap for seconds or minutes...and do it close to where the power is needed.

Can't do any of that with a petrol car.

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#1647551 8-Oct-2016 01:31

robjg63:

Will be interesting to see what sort of price they [Tesla Cars] are when officially sold here. We always seem to pay quite a premium for being a small market.

Tesla has a "fair pricing" policy for its export markets.

They only add forex, freight & unavoidable taxes to their cars in foreign markets.

BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc, all seem to add and additional $10k+ to their prices in NZ over those in in the US (after allowing for unavoidable costs), so this should shake the market up quite a bit

WyleECoyoteNZ:

The Nissan Leaf, BMW i3 and new Renault Zoe are perfect for City driving, and short trips, but at the moment that's (as far as I can tell) that's all they are good for.

These mentioned EV's aren't really designed to pack a family of 4 into, with luggage, and go away on a holiday road trip. For that, you'd need a second vehicle, either traditional ICE, hybrid or a expensive Telsa. And that's great if you can afford to run 2 cars. Not everyone can.

Reality is that multi-vehicle ownership is very common in NZ.

In the 2013 census, this question was asked:

“How many motor vehicles (not counting motorbikes) do the people who live here have available for their use?”

Vehicles that belong to visitors, vehicles that can be used only for work, or only on the farm, and motorbikes, or scooters are excluded.

where a valid response was recorded:

7.9% of NZ households have access to no cars

37.6% of NZ households have access to 1 car

38.4% of NZ households have access to 2 cars

16.1% of NZ households have access to 3+ cars

WyleECoyoteNZ:

The EV charging station that exist around the country, are these free, or do you have to pay a small fee to use them?

If they are free to charge, and as more and more EV's take to the roads, do you see them continuing to be free to use?

If they are free, the EV driver may not be paying, but somebody is. So if EV's become more and more popular, and say a big retail complex like Queensgate Hutt City (who for arguments sake has 1000 car parking spaces) converts 10% of these to EV charging spots I doubt they'd continue to be free parking.

And my final question, is NZ infrastructure in place to support a growing EV fleet? Say in 10 years time the EV fleet is around 40,000 vehicles (maybe a bit unrealistic) and they are being used for commuting, are we producing enough electricity to support a large volume of demand at peak times?

All free charging station are a gift from the host businesses. Similar to how you can park your car for free at the mall (that parking space sure isn't free. To build parking spaces in a building costs around $50,000 each). There are certainly the means to charge for changing, but nobody has decided it is worth it yet for slow charging (charge.net currently charges for its fast charges, and Vector has announced that they will introduce a billing system also.

Government EV perks (i.e. RUC extensions expire when EV's hit the mainstream (when they make up 2% of the NZ vehicle fleet))

In regards to electricity, In short, we have heaps of available & consented capacity. 40,000 car's impact on the grid will be tiny.

Congestion at fastchargers on holiday weekends will be another matter.

Willuknight:

ACC are currently seeking feedback on their payments. Can I encourage everyone here to share their thoughts on this subject with ACC - I've attached mine below.

I think ACC should be (for the highest safety band cars at least) entirely loaded onto Petrol & RUC. Surely the distance you drive has a more direct relationship to your likelihood of being injured / injuring somebody than the number of cars / bikes you own.

I will write something about air quality but I don't know if it will fly with ACC. They are more concerned with instantaneous event's than worsened health from long term exposure to carcinogenic diesel fumes.

MikeB4

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#1647581 8-Oct-2016 07:39

An EV for us would be a second or third vehicle, if we lived in say Christchurch then it could be a primary vehicle. Unfortunately in Wellington in order to leave our fabulous city one has to climb hills and that hurts range considerably today. In a few years it is not going to be an issue.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

afe66

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#1647611 8-Oct-2016 09:10

But then when you drive back down the hill, you charge back. :-)

If you live on top of a hill, it might not be too much of an issue if you can plug in when you get home. Hills do reduce range but as a general commuting car would it be an issue.

I live 150m above sea level and haven't had any issues. I might try seeing how much battery I use driving from sea level to 400m.

paulchinnz

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#1647615 8-Oct-2016 09:29

Scott3:
robjg63:

Will be interesting to see what sort of price they [Tesla Cars] are when officially sold here. We always seem to pay quite a premium for being a small market.

Tesla has a "fair pricing" policy for its export markets.

They only add forex, freight & unavoidable taxes to their cars in foreign markets.

BMW, Audi, Mercedes etc, all seem to add and additional $10k+ to their prices in NZ over those in in the US (after allowing for unavoidable costs), so this should shake the market up quite a bit

WyleECoyoteNZ:

The Nissan Leaf, BMW i3 and new Renault Zoe are perfect for City driving, and short trips, but at the moment that's (as far as I can tell) that's all they are good for.

These mentioned EV's aren't really designed to pack a family of 4 into, with luggage, and go away on a holiday road trip. For that, you'd need a second vehicle, either traditional ICE, hybrid or a expensive Telsa. And that's great if you can afford to run 2 cars. Not everyone can.

Reality is that multi-vehicle ownership is very common in NZ.

In the 2013 census, this question was asked:

“How many motor vehicles (not counting motorbikes) do the people who live here have available for their use?”

Vehicles that belong to visitors, vehicles that can be used only for work, or only on the farm, and motorbikes, or scooters are excluded.

where a valid response was recorded:

7.9% of NZ households have access to no cars

37.6% of NZ households have access to 1 car

38.4% of NZ households have access to 2 cars

16.1% of NZ households have access to 3+ cars

WyleECoyoteNZ:

The EV charging station that exist around the country, are these free, or do you have to pay a small fee to use them?

If they are free to charge, and as more and more EV's take to the roads, do you see them continuing to be free to use?

If they are free, the EV driver may not be paying, but somebody is. So if EV's become more and more popular, and say a big retail complex like Queensgate Hutt City (who for arguments sake has 1000 car parking spaces) converts 10% of these to EV charging spots I doubt they'd continue to be free parking.

And my final question, is NZ infrastructure in place to support a growing EV fleet? Say in 10 years time the EV fleet is around 40,000 vehicles (maybe a bit unrealistic) and they are being used for commuting, are we producing enough electricity to support a large volume of demand at peak times?

All free charging station are a gift from the host businesses. Similar to how you can park your car for free at the mall (that parking space sure isn't free. To build parking spaces in a building costs around $50,000 each). There are certainly the means to charge for changing, but nobody has decided it is worth it yet for slow charging (charge.net currently charges for its fast charges, and Vector has announced that they will introduce a billing system also.

Government EV perks (i.e. RUC extensions expire when EV's hit the mainstream (when they make up 2% of the NZ vehicle fleet))

In regards to electricity, In short, we have heaps of available & consented capacity. 40,000 car's impact on the grid will be tiny.

Congestion at fastchargers on holiday weekends will be another matter.

Willuknight:

ACC are currently seeking feedback on their payments. Can I encourage everyone here to share their thoughts on this subject with ACC - I've attached mine below.

I think ACC should be (for the highest safety band cars at least) entirely loaded onto Petrol & RUC. Surely the distance you drive has a more direct relationship to your likelihood of being injured / injuring somebody than the number of cars / bikes you own.

I will write something about air quality but I don't know if it will fly with ACC. They are more concerned with instantaneous event's than worsened health from long term exposure to carcinogenic diesel fumes.

Expect you're right, though ACC have attended to long term stuff before: http://www.acc.co.nz/PRD_EXT_CSMP/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=10722&dDocName=PRD_CTRB113163&allowInterrupt=1

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afe66

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#1647676 8-Oct-2016 13:02

Out of curiosity, I have just got back from driving my 2014 Gen2 Leaf from the bottom to the top os a local observation point.

6Km for a vertical rise of 310m using 14% of my battery and regenerate 3% coming back down.

Multiply by 7 gives you 2170m vertical rise over 42km from a "tank"

Wellingtons not that steep. ;-)

Unlike @Linuxlover I'm a urban driver only as their aren't really any rapid chargers in the deep south outside dunedin and invercargill

Scott3

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#1647779 8-Oct-2016 19:29

In the Japanese domestic market the Nissan Leaf is going to have a new PHEV (Plug in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) Little brother.

The Nissan Note EV is going to be a 100% series plug in hybrid (like the BMW i3 Rex), with the engine solely tasked with running a generator to charge the battery.

I don't think the vital all electric range figure has been disclosed yet.

Japanese language source:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/ganbaremmc/archives/49610589.html

http://autoc-one.jp/nissan/note/special-2612971/

It appears to be pitched as Toyota Aqua killer (Known in NZ as the "Prius C").

The Aqua was the best seller in japan by a massive margin. link. So seems like a good target.

As per normal in NZ, give it 2-3 years, and and heaps will start popping up here.

Linuxluver

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#1647946 9-Oct-2016 12:36

MikeB4: An EV for us would be a second or third vehicle, if we lived in say Christchurch then it could be a primary vehicle. Unfortunately in Wellington in order to leave our fabulous city one has to climb hills and that hurts range considerably today. In a few years it is not going to be an issue.

]

The hill out of Wellington isn't so bad as you get a lot of it back as you slowly descend to Porirua and sea level.....then climb again.....but descend again at Pukerua Bay. The bad hills are the ones where the other side is beyond your range. I've proven this to myself on the road between Hamilton and Rotorua. You do go waaaaay up....but the slalom 17kms out from Rotorus gives you a lot of it back.....you just have to be sure you'll get to the top (no worries on that trip......but you get the idea). I'm thinking climbing up onto the central plateau could see you needing a charger sooner....but the run down from Waiouru through the Rangitikei would be reasonably in surplus....overall.

The fast charger going in at Otaki would address than in the next few weeks. There is already one in Featherston. :-)

I'll be driving Auckland to Wellington as soon as the under contructions chargers are in plus one in Taupo and Turangi. I won't need them all, but they will be there if required.

Auckland -> Hamilton -> Tokoroa -> Taupo -> Waiouru -> Mangweka -> Palmerston North -> Otaki -> Wellington - I probably won't need all of them with a 30kw LEAF. I reckon I can do the whole trip in 4-5 hops.

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matabo

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#1647983 9-Oct-2016 13:55

Well these are coming out , but @ around 75 grand compared to 35 grand for a diesel, it seems a lot of money , still they say , about 350/400 ks per charge and 2 hour charge time is good .

http://www.stuff.co.nz/m....van-brand

Scott3

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#1647987 9-Oct-2016 14:21

matabo:

Well these are coming out , but @ around 75 grand compared to 35 grand for a diesel, it seems a lot of money , still they say , about 350/400 ks per charge and 2 hour charge time is good .

http://www.stuff.co.nz/m....van-brand

They are expensive compared to the diesel Variant, but the price is very sharp.

For a company that traditionally purchases high spec new Toyota Hiaces (Top spec $65,880) or Ford Transits (Top spec $70,940), that price isn't too much of a jump.

It also compares very well to the only other pure electric van available new in the NZ market (the much smaller renault Kangoo)

I imagine for example a premium eco-tour operation would be jumping to get their hands on these.

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#1648218 9-Oct-2016 20:50

Scott3:

matabo:

Well these are coming out , but @ around 75 grand compared to 35 grand for a diesel, it seems a lot of money , still they say , about 350/400 ks per charge and 2 hour charge time is good .

http://www.stuff.co.nz/m....van-brand

They are expensive compared to the diesel Variant, but the price is very sharp.

For a company that traditionally purchases high spec new Toyota Hiaces (Top spec $65,880) or Ford Transits (Top spec $70,940), that price isn't too much of a jump.

It also compares very well to the only other pure electric van available new in the NZ market (the much smaller renault Kangoo)

I imagine for example a premium eco-tour operation would be jumping to get their hands on these.

Early days. If more countries move to ban internal combustion engines (Norway, GERMANY, India and the Netherlands - at least - so far) we're going to see a rush by carmakers to secure mindshare for EVs. Late arrivers will be also-rans, looking 5 years out. Plus there's the whole "Tell me again why you dragged your heels to address climate change?" thing for car makers.....no real answer to that.

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Linuxluver

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#1648221 9-Oct-2016 21:00

Maserati to make an EV by 2020. They've been "told" to get it done by the big bosses at Fiat-Chrysler.

Time to wipe off the drawing board and get going.

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#1648223 9-Oct-2016 21:08

What's driving the European rush to EVs?

People are suggesting the EU emissions standards deadline of 2021 has a lot do with it. Fuel consumption has to fall to 4.1l / 100km (in other words, from 130g of CO2 / km to 95g CO2 / km) as of 2021 or the automakers will have some hefty penalties.
Averages come into play and one way to shift an average is to have a proportion of cars emit nothing at all to help balance out the emissions from cars that emit too much. Plus there is the strong possibility that a very few years later (2030?) internal combustion engines (petrol or diesel) will be banned in many countries if not the entire EU.

Going electric now makes sense. The trick will be to do it in such a way that you don't crash the existing business into a wall. Very carefully...and being an EV market leader offers the best chance of success as well as an opportunity for (relatively) small vehicle makers, like Renault, to move to the front ranks, ahead of the Germans maybe(?).......while others follow on.

UPDATE: The same thing applies - emissions reduction deadlines - to companies wanting to make / sell cars in China. Companies like VW.

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#1648516 10-Oct-2016 13:24

Linuxluver:

....

EVs can be strategic power storage grid components

Another element that will be of strategic value is the potential to use an EV as a defacto powerwall for a home. This is why Telsa is moving rapidly on solar panels, powerwalls and electric vehicles. The potential is there is run your house for hours or even days off a large EV battery....and still have enough power to drive around. If charged via solar, this is even more valuable. But people running the grid are beginning to think of a massive distributed network of EV batteries plugged in at various times during the day with potential to support fluctuations in generation by renewable sources. If the wind slows down there is a momentary gap in supply, the grid could, conceivably, draw on a million EV batteries to fill the gap for seconds or minutes...and do it close to where the power is needed.

Can't do any of that with a petrol car.

In Japan they've made a product to support that. JDM had standard inventors in ICE cars (12 to 100 AC) for ages and lately V2H for EVs.

However if EV is only car in the household - it is not very practical idea. 24 or even 30KWH battery in the newer Leaf is not enough to run my household for a day (33KWH / day in winter on ave);

Meaning that one would be without electricity and without the car pretty soon.

In US there are several completed and tested (e.g. Arizona, 4 days run) very simple (deployed in a few minutes) solutions to run Prius as a 2-3KW generator (using APC UPS) for as long as you have petrol. They say it is better than industrial Honda generators for that matter. On my to do list - plug and play solution: running coffee machine (1.2KW) on the Piha beach from my Prius :-)

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