Electric vehicles

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Ultimate Geek
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#1342637 13-Jul-2015 22:33

frankv:
dwl: Another first happening as I write this

See http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/101/3097-full.html?ET=avweb:e3097:220868a:&st=email#224415 -- the first electric-powered aircraft to cross the Channel was the Solar Challenger, 34 years ago.

Good point and those earlier flights were amazing, especially pedal powered. I think there is a difference between initial concepts which were quite fragile and needed good conditions (as does Solar Impulse) and prototypes which perform similar to their petrol counterparts and can cope with a range of conditions.

The definition of what means first is definitely in question although Airbus has been more specific than the headlines (which I agree are wrong) with the current wording on their website of "Airbus Group’s E-Fan technology demonstrator has become the world’s first twin-engine electric plane taking off with its own power to successfully cross the English Channel". This puts the Cri-Cri need to piggy back and not taking off into different category (it was twin engine!).

The resilience and practicality of those concept aircraft is well below electric production aircraft like the Pipistrel. Sad to see Solar Impulse with battery problems - from website news "Si2 has suffered battery damages due to overheating. The damage to certain parts of the batteries is irreversible and will require repairs and replacements that will take several weeks to work through." They put a lot of effort into insulating the batteries to produce power at low temperatures which probably didn't help (massive challenge with altitude range).

I think we have reach the point where electric cars are quite viable now and if fuel and maintenance costs included starting to get parity with fossil fuels. For aircraft a bit further to go.

RUKI

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Uber Geek
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#1342900 14-Jul-2015 11:20

You all have heard about PHEV and using them for "EV for Home" as a back up.

http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=32109

Marvelous idea! Why I still do not have Plug-in-Prius or Nissan Leaf? Give me one, now please!

The huge irony is that last night power went off and I was sitting on piles of batteries capable to deliver a lot of power with no ready to use back up power bank.

"The cobbler's children always go barefoot"

But to be fare to myself - the HV Battery Analyser was still running on UPS and was able to finish the test on the Prius pack and record results.

I have few Industrial UPS but the problem is - they are designed to work with Lead-acid but not Li or NiMH.

Anyone came accross and done some mods to utilise different battery chemistry in UPS?

If yes - I can see how batteries from defected car battery packs can be used without the need to purchase specialised battery power banks equipment.

Scott3

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#1347029 18-Jul-2015 23:14

We now have a Light electric vehicle fleet of 695 in NZ (as at end of June, Plug in hybrid + pure electric)

Hybrids + Pure Electric + Plug-in Hybrid's make up about 1% of light vehicle registrations.

Pure Electric + Plug In hybrid's make up about 0.15% - 0.2% of new registrations.

Source:

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/newzealandvehiclefleetstatistics/#monthly

I think this is pretty good given the fairly low incentives we have for electric vehicles here.

Ministry of transport has also released a break down by light electric vehicle type and region.

6 Tesla Model S
2 Tesla Roadster
265 Outlander Plug In Hybrid
227 Nissan Leaf (76 NZ new, 151 used imports)
26 Holden/Chevy Volts (plug in hybrid
23 Audi A3 Plug in Hybrid
34 Mitsubishi i-Miev
42 BMW "i" - not broken down between i3 and i8 (NZ new models of both are plug in hybrid)
5 Porsche Cayenne Plug in hybrid
9 Suzhou Eagle's (Chinese porsche cayman copy with electric drive train)

Plus a few others.

Looks like the Outlander PHEV is leading the Electric/Plug in vehicle scene here, with the Nissan leaf coming up second driven mainly by low cost used imports.

In other news Tesla today announced:

90Kwh battery pack option (previous biggest battery was 85kwh) - in Model S 90D configuration gives a range of 270miles (434.5km)
Ludicrous Speed - Upgrade gives Model S P85D/P90D 0-60MPH time of 2.8sec (previously 3.2) - Makes the top spec tesla the fastest accelerating production sedan by far. It also makes it faster accelerating than many supercars -for example the only production Ferrari with a faster 0-60 time is the LaFerrari (worth multiple millions).
Model S 70Kwh RWD. Reduces base price Model S to USD70,000.
Next gen roadster 4 years away
Model X delivers on track for first delivery in 2 mounts
Model III just over 2 years away

Fred99

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#1347692 20-Jul-2015 12:16

Scott3:

In other news Tesla today announced:

90Kwh battery pack option (previous biggest battery was 85kwh) - in Model S 90D configuration gives a range of 270miles (434.5km)
Ludicrous Speed - Upgrade gives Model S P85D/P90D 0-60MPH time of 2.8sec (previously 3.2) - Makes the top spec tesla the fastest accelerating production sedan by far. It also makes it faster accelerating than many supercars -for example the only production Ferrari with a faster 0-60 time is the LaFerrari (worth multiple millions).

To clarify that, as I understand it the P90D model (successor to the P85D) comes with "Ludicrous Mode" (0-100 in 2.8 seconds) as standard. The P85D can be modified by Tesla to bring it up to P90D specs.

Insane to Ludicrous. I wonder what comes next.

RUKI

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#1347809 20-Jul-2015 15:54

Scott3: We now have a Light electric vehicle fleet of 695 in NZ (as at end of June, Plug in hybrid + pure electric)

Source:

http://www.transport.govt.nz/research/newzealandvehiclefleetstatistics/#monthly

Just looked at the source above (was there 2 years ago and numbers are jumping up):

Quarterly Fleet Statistics Spreadsheet Jan to Mar 2015 update [XLSX, 683 KB]

Look for the list "Electric_hybrid" in that .xlsx

Looks like we have from Q1 20015 to Q1 2015:

New hybrid

Used hybrid

New electric

Used electric

Plugin hybrid

All electrics

8202

3821

1119

493

943

2555

That is much more than I would expect we have in NZ.

Scott3

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#1347929 20-Jul-2015 18:50

Fred99:
To clarify that, as I understand it the P90D model (successor to the P85D) comes with "Ludicrous Mode" (0-60MPH (0-97km/h) in 2.8 seconds) as standard. The P85D can be modified by Tesla to bring it up to P90D specs.

Insane to Ludicrous. I wonder what comes next.

Close, But not quiet.

Press release here: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/three-dog-day

Model S 85, Model S 85D, and Model S P85D are still available. US$3000 upgrades them (at time of order) to Model S 90, Model S 90D, and Model S P90D

The "Ludicrous" upgrade can be retrospectively applied for US$5000 + Labour for existing owners of P85D cars, and is a US$10 000 upgrade for those buying new cars (Requires P90D). This last bit is strange given how the press release go's on about capacity being independent of peak power (implying that the battery has plenty of discharge "C" available). Doubt anybody would care though. If I I was to drop over USD100k on a car, the $3k for 5% more range box would probably be ticked anyway.

Without the upgrade "insane" acceleration is 0-60MPH in 3.1 seconds (sorry, wrote this as 3.2sec in my last post. upgrade from 3.2 to 3.1 sec was done by software.

This acceleration time puts the model S in pretty special territory, Just 12 faster accelerating production cars in the world (all super-cars except the Nissan GTR Nismo), faster than any production Koenigsegg:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fastest_production_cars_by_acceleration

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Scott3

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#1347937 20-Jul-2015 19:05

RUKI:

New hybrid Used hybrid New electric Used electric Plugin hybrid All electrics 8202 3821 1119 493 943 2555
That is much more than I would expect we have in NZ.

I looked at "What are the light electrics and where are they? [XLS, 27 KB]" and "Monthly light registrations to June 2015 [PDF, 2.7 MB]" under "monthly". It has data current as at the end of June.

The last 4 columns are already cumulative figures, that why your number are wrong.

Wonder where electric motorbikes are counted? saw a nice large electric scooter go past when I was at the bus stop this morning.

RUKI

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#1348167 21-Jul-2015 08:37

Scott3:

I looked at "What are the light electrics and where are they? [XLS, 27 KB]" and "Monthly light registrations to June 2015 [PDF, 2.7 MB]" under "monthly". It has data current as at the end of June.

The last 4 columns are already cumulative figures,.

You are right about EV numbers - those were cumulative. Hybrid numbers are correct.

Correct numbers:

Plug-In and EV = 543 (no indication of those 3 Prius Plug In - which Toyota has mentioned they gave to Massey UNiversity in 2010.)

Hybrids = 12023 - that is the number I was mostly interested in. 2311 of those hybrids are registered before Q1 2008 - those over 8 year old hybrids already have potentially failing batteries - some of them are going to be my customers for their battery test and/or rebuild.

grant_k

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#1348235 21-Jul-2015 10:25

RUKI: ...

Hybrids = 12023 - that is the number I was mostly interested in. 2311 of those hybrids are registered before Q1 2008 - those over 8 year old hybrids already have potentially failing batteries - some of them are going to be my customers for their battery test and/or rebuild.

Out of interest, what do you typically charge to rebuild the battery pack in an older Hybrid such as an early 2000s Prius?

RUKI

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#1349678 22-Jul-2015 09:38

grant_k:
RUKI: ...

Hybrids = 12023 - that is the number I was mostly interested in. 2311 of those hybrids are registered before Q1 2008 - those over 8 year old hybrids already have potentially failing batteries - some of them are going to be my customers for their battery test and/or rebuild.

Out of interest, what do you typically charge to rebuild the battery pack in an older Hybrid such as an early 2000s Prius?

I need stats of how many NHW-10 and NHW-11 are still on the roads in New Zealand?

Which car do you have NHW-10 (1997 – 1999) or NHW-11 (2000-2003)?

There is no "typical" price ...it is by negotiation. Rebuild or second hand packs vary in condition – which impacts their lifespan. The price would be reflective.

Both models as above have their specifics and if you do not own one of those but consider buying one because it is cheap (those cars are going now for $600 – $1000) I can give you a hint of what you can do with them. That is if you are truly DIY person, have tons of spare time, understand risks associated with high voltage, etc.

If you are not DIY or not electrically savvy – please stay away from those.

As for now, I can test your battery pack. I can buy fully assembled but failed pack from you. If you are lucky I may have complete tested pack for you to swap.

grant_k

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#1349711 22-Jul-2015 10:33

RUKI:
grant_k:
RUKI: ...

Hybrids = 12023 - that is the number I was mostly interested in. 2311 of those hybrids are registered before Q1 2008 - those over 8 year old hybrids already have potentially failing batteries - some of them are going to be my customers for their battery test and/or rebuild.

Out of interest, what do you typically charge to rebuild the battery pack in an older Hybrid such as an early 2000s Prius?

I need stats of how many NHW-10 and NHW-11 are still on the roads in New Zealand?

Which car do you have NHW-10 (1997 – 1999) or NHW-11 (2000-2003)?
There is no "typical" price ...it is by negotiation. Rebuild or second hand packs vary in condition – which impacts their lifespan. The price would be reflective. Both models as above have their specifics and if you do not own one of those but consider buying one because it is cheap (those cars are going now for $600 – $1000) I can give you a hint of what you can do with them. That is if you are truly DIY person, have tons of spare time, understand risks associated with high voltage, etc. If you are not DIY or not electrically savvy – please stay away from those. As for now, I can test your battery pack. I can buy fully assembled but failed pack from you. If you are lucky I may have complete tested pack for you to swap.

Hi Ruki,

I don't currently own a Prius -- it was just a hypothetical question. Thanks for the warning though, because without knowing all the facts, $600 - $1k sounds very cheap for a 15-year old Prius. From what you've said it would be a bad idea. I am comfortable working with high voltage, and have electrical DIY skills, but whether I want to spend many hours rebuilding an aging Prius is another question. I would probably be better off buying a much newer Nissan Leaf ex Japan, or maybe a Mitsi Outlander or whatever else is on offer by the time our existing car comes up for replacement in another 1 or 2 years.

Lego

Shop now for Lego sets and other gifts (affiliate link).

RUKI

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#1349814 22-Jul-2015 14:16

grant_k: ..... I would probably be better off buying a much newer Nissan Leaf ex Japan, or maybe a Mitsi Outlander or whatever else is on offer by the time our existing car comes up for replacement in another 1 or 2 years.

If I were you - what I would check before buying any of those is whether the battery pack is easily dismantable down to individual modules to allow easy access, removal of the pack and repair.
From my understanding Nissan has easier access to individual Li- modules.

What I would also consider is whether modules could be sourced easily - locally, from overseas, dealer only or third party.
One garage in US I am dealing with said they buy Nissan modules for EV conversions and those are much better quality than Li sourced from PRC.

Mitsubishi had issues in 2010:
http://insideevs.com/mitsubishi-determines-battery-issue-in-outlander-phev-while-seperate-problem-forces-recall-of-all-units-sold/

Leaf has newer pack design which they said would require extra module (cost money) to retrofit into the first gen Leaf.

Did not play with Leafs myself yet. Could be fun. I guess I may see one when it is no longer fun for the owner :-)

Bobdn

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Master Geek
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#1350703 23-Jul-2015 19:23

Bobdn: I'm starting to get seriously interested in electric vehicles (EVs). I want one but, given their price, I'm not going to be an early adopter for this tech. It's not like upgrading to a 4k curved TV. When will EVs become more mainstream? As I posted in another forum quite unrelated to GZ, I think we'll see significant EV action by 2020:

1. oil prices will have recovered pushing up fuel prices;
2. there'll be a steady stream of quality used EVs from Japan;
3. modestly priced new EVs (like the Nissan Leaf) will comfortably have a range of over 400km (perhaps as early as 2017). By 2020, the range of EVs may be over 500km. Range anxiety will be a thing of the past. See: http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/09/...-says-vw-exec/
4. Tesla may have entered the NZ market with affordable, beautiful, vehicles
5. iCar (big guess here) will be available

Am I dreaming?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/70473911/apple-car-hints-company-hires-chrysler-executive-robotic-car-expert

Hopefully some progress towards number 5 on my original post. Oh my, imagine if Apple entered the scene.

RUKI

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#1351019 24-Jul-2015 10:10

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/70473911/apple-car-hints-company-hires-chrysler-executive-robotic-car-expert
Hopefully some progress towards number 5 on my original post. Oh my, imagine if Apple entered the scene.

Looks like mouse on wheels. Nice. Give me that one and it has to be no longer than 3.7 meters to park in the CBD!

maxeon

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#1351051 24-Jul-2015 10:31

I have been following this thread for sometime. I am considering to try the Mitsubishi Outlander Plug In Hybrid. Does anyone here own it? and what is your experience with it like? I have owned Prius in the past and some Lexus Hybrids but they are not fully electric like them.

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