Hydrogen powered cars: Your news and views please

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Sidestep

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#2261780 21-Jun-2019 08:39

tdgeek:

What they omitted was how they made the Hydrogen. If its made with FF as is the current process its a waste of time, as you are just emitting the FF in a different place. If they can make it using renewables using improved electrolysis or a different process then its worth looking at. Seems easier to me to outfit the rest of their network so they can run via cabled electricity and dump the battery as well

What the BCRRE and Porterbrook have built is just a (UK gauge) cheap & cheerful electric/hydrogen bi-mode range extender for their existing electric trains.
It's missing a lot of stuff - like regenerative braking – that you'd expect to see in a dedicated Hydrogen train.

If it's viable for them to integrate an emission free FC system to extend electric train services beyond the 40% or so of their lines that are electrified, maybe that's an incremental step towards zero-carbon H2 sourcing.

The HydroFLEX demonstrator train in that video's a fairly basic offering, with a FCveloCity-HD fuel cell module and ancillary systems, racks of Luxfer H2 tanks and valving, powering a Class 319 electric's existing motor.

The H2 parts are scalable, proven 'off the rack' systems, already used in many industrial and transport application worldwide.

Ballard's also a FC supplier to operational true hydrogen rail programs in Germany and China.

Germany's modern, zero-emission, hydrogen fuel cell passenger train - Alstom's Coradia iLint runs between Cuxhaven, Bremerhaven, Bremervörde and Buxtehude in northern Germany. It's more of an integrated Hydrogen systems trial, managing zero-emission H2 supply and infrastructure, with 14 more hydrogen trains set to be introduced across the state in the next two years.

The case for fuel cell - hydrogen-hybrid - electric propulsion, in Medium and Heavy Duty Transport applications, Generation Plants, Construction and Mining machinery, Shipping, and associated fixed handling equipment is strong, and already proven in a multitude of existing applications worldwide.

This is where Hydrogen shines – rather than the very marginal case for light road vehicle applications.

The already discussed drawbacks of hydrogen as an energy carrier – conversion inefficiencies, storage & transport costs, supply & infrastructure deficits are balanced by the advantages it offers for fixed, power hungry large equipment, applications for remote non-powered sites, and specific industrial needs such as mobile equipment with very large intermittent energy requirements, or continuous, long term off-the-grid operation.

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#2261782 21-Jun-2019 08:46

Thanks for the detail, appreciated. I like H2, once renewable creation is viable. Yes, H2 is emission free (apart from a tickle of NO), but how is it manufactured? I assume it's manufactured using FF which is the normal process right now, so if thats the case its not emission free

Sidestep

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#2261786 21-Jun-2019 08:54

tdgeek:

Thanks for the detail, appreciated. I like H2, once renewable creation is viable. Yes, H2 is emission free (apart from a tickle of NO), but how is it manufactured? I assume it's manufactured using FF which is the normal process right now, so if thats the case its not emission free

The trial isn't about a full emissions free H2 cycle.
It's a Demonstrator project for just one small part of the system. A train with a hydrogen powered range extender.

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#2261788 21-Jun-2019 08:58

Sidestep:

tdgeek:

Thanks for the detail, appreciated. I like H2, once renewable creation is viable. Yes, H2 is emission free (apart from a tickle of NO), but how is it manufactured? I assume it's manufactured using FF which is the normal process right now, so if thats the case its not emission free

The trial isn't about a full emissions free H2 cycle.
It's a Demonstrator project for just one small part of the system. A train with a hydrogen powered range extender.

Sidestep

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#2261812 21-Jun-2019 09:52

Some of the ways the UK's planning to produce zero-emission hydrogen are mentioned here.

It's a bit of a chicken & egg dilemma. Hydrogen production costs will reduce with scale, but without demand scale won't be implemented.
At the moment almost all hydrogen powered public transportation's subsidised in some way.

In the US & Canada subsidised bus services are trying to create emission free hydrogen supply chains.

In Europe a small but growing percentage of the bus fleet's H2 powered, with the same goal.

FCH is partially funding 300 fuel cell buses.

Wrightbus (who build a fuel cell electric double decker bus, 12-meter single-decker bus and articulated bus) is supplying 20 double decker hydrogen buses for London. They're also using Ballard Fuel Cells.

As demand increases, bus manufacturers also find economies of scale.

Solaris Urbino 12's hydrogen bus has Ballard Fuel Cells with high mounted type 4 tanks - and after trialling buses in Hamburg has begun delivering the first orders to Italy.

Van Hool - Europe's 4th largest bus manufacturer has announced a run of 21 hydrogen buses to add to their existing fleet of 27.

The H2 Bus Consortium's putting 600 hydrogen buses on the streets, 200 each in Denmark, Latvia and the UK, with a total goal of 1,000 units.

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#2261824 21-Jun-2019 10:23

Yes, great stuff going on. There is a housing estate in the UK that is a test bed for H2, just heating I think. Skimmed a couple of links, I'll read properly later

frednz

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#2261871 21-Jun-2019 11:53

https://thedriven.io/2018/11/15/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-have-three-times-emissions-of-battery-evs-uq-study/

From the above:

A major new study from researchers at The University of Queensland warns that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will likely have three times the emissions of battery electric vehicles, if using the main grid, and won’t make much environmental sense until the Australian grid is largely decarbonised.

Based on Australia’s average emissions for the main grid of 750g of Co2= per kWh (and it does vary from state to state), it means a battery electric vehicle (BEV) is likely to achieve a 40 per cent reduction in emissions over an internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) – down from 355 grams of CO2/Km to 113 grams of CO2/km.

However, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle powered from main the main grid is likely to produce three times more emissions than a battery electric vehicle – 647gCO2/kM, resulting in an 80 per cent increase in emissions over the petrol and diesel fleet we have now.

...the UQ study notes that on the basis of 14 million passenger and light commercial vehicles in Australia, having a car fleet that is 100 per cent battery electric will require about 37TWh of electricity per year, or about 15 per cent of the country’s generation.

Having a fleet made up 100 per cent of fuel cell vehicles will require about 157 TWh of electricity per annum, or 63 per cent of Australia’s annual generation.

Although this research is based in Australia, it does give some interesting information about the future amount of electricity that may be required there to produce hydrogen gas if a large number of vehicles were to use hydrogen fuel cells (compared with what is needed for battery electric vehicles).

PolicyGuy

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#2261874 21-Jun-2019 12:10

tdgeek:

What they omitted was how they made the Hydrogen. If its made with FF as is the current process its a waste of time, as you are just emitting the FF in a different place. If they can make it using renewables using improved electrolysis or a different process then its worth looking at. Seems easier to me to outfit the rest of their network so they can run via cabled electricity and dump the battery as well

There will be significant environmental benefits even if the use of hydrogen fuel does not make for reduced carbon footprints.

Even if the buses use hydrogen-powered ICE, they will not put out the soot, CO2, CO, nitrates and particulates that diesel does. If they use a hydrogen fuel cell, then they will also be much quieter than diesel buses. Hence there will be significant environmental advantages in the urban areas where the buses are used.

Also, one would hope that a large-scale fixed plant burning FF would be much more thermally efficient than a fleet of mobile diesel bus engines, and would have much better control and filtering of its 'exhaust' gases, plus the opportunity in a cool climate like the UK to use a substantial portion of the 'waste' heat either for accommodation heating or as process heat

Of course, it would be much better if the hydrogen was 'green' in its production, too
:D

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#2261882 21-Jun-2019 12:20

I agree Fred. In AUS they are heavily coal fired generators, so simplistically, green transport will still cause emissions, but conversion of some fuels via FF is better than others.

If I was in AUS, and I assume Solar PV would be better value than here, and also that they get more sunlight hours, running your EV from solar PV source would be viable for some. In the weekend, or even empty most of the Powerwall every couple of nights if all you have on is the telly at night would be a good use. That's purely from an emissions POV

wellygary

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#2261925 21-Jun-2019 12:29

frednz:

https://thedriven.io/2018/11/15/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-have-three-times-emissions-of-battery-evs-uq-study/

From the above:

A major new study from researchers at The University of Queensland warns that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will likely have three times the emissions of battery electric vehicles, if using the main grid, and won’t make much environmental sense until the Australian grid is largely decarbonised.

Gawd, who funds these studies..

If you were going to convert Australia to mass FCVs you would steam reform Natural gas, its not there is a shortage over there....

tdgeek

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#2261930 21-Jun-2019 12:47

wellygary:

frednz:

https://thedriven.io/2018/11/15/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-have-three-times-emissions-of-battery-evs-uq-study/

From the above:

A major new study from researchers at The University of Queensland warns that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will likely have three times the emissions of battery electric vehicles, if using the main grid, and won’t make much environmental sense until the Australian grid is largely decarbonised.

Gawd, who funds these studies..

If you were going to convert Australia to mass FCVs you would steam reform Natural gas, its not there is a shortage over there....

I think the point is that the current process to make hydrogen uses FF. So you emit FF during production instead of during transport usage. And if Fred's article is correct, that H production emits more than petrol/diesel 355 vs 600 odd

Linuxluver

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#2262204 21-Jun-2019 20:34

frednz:

https://thedriven.io/2018/11/15/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-have-three-times-emissions-of-battery-evs-uq-study/

From the above:

A major new study from researchers at The University of Queensland warns that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will likely have three times the emissions of battery electric vehicles, if using the main grid, and won’t make much environmental sense until the Australian grid is largely decarbonised.

Based on Australia’s average emissions for the main grid of 750g of Co2= per kWh (and it does vary from state to state), it means a battery electric vehicle (BEV) is likely to achieve a 40 per cent reduction in emissions over an internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) – down from 355 grams of CO2/Km to 113 grams of CO2/km.

However, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle powered from main the main grid is likely to produce three times more emissions than a battery electric vehicle – 647gCO2/kM, resulting in an 80 per cent increase in emissions over the petrol and diesel fleet we have now.

...the UQ study notes that on the basis of 14 million passenger and light commercial vehicles in Australia, having a car fleet that is 100 per cent battery electric will require about 37TWh of electricity per year, or about 15 per cent of the country’s generation.

Having a fleet made up 100 per cent of fuel cell vehicles will require about 157 TWh of electricity per annum, or 63 per cent of Australia’s annual generation.

Although this research is based in Australia, it does give some interesting information about the future amount of electricity that may be required there to produce hydrogen gas if a large number of vehicles were to use hydrogen fuel cells (compared with what is needed for battery electric vehicles).

Australia is being pathetic about coal. The LibNats are owned by the coal lobby......and most of them mare climate change deniers anyway. It's a very backward place in many ways. Can't see the climate for the coal.

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

tdgeek

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#2262206 21-Jun-2019 20:37

Linuxluver:

frednz:

https://thedriven.io/2018/11/15/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-have-three-times-emissions-of-battery-evs-uq-study/

From the above:

A major new study from researchers at The University of Queensland warns that hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will likely have three times the emissions of battery electric vehicles, if using the main grid, and won’t make much environmental sense until the Australian grid is largely decarbonised.

Based on Australia’s average emissions for the main grid of 750g of Co2= per kWh (and it does vary from state to state), it means a battery electric vehicle (BEV) is likely to achieve a 40 per cent reduction in emissions over an internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) – down from 355 grams of CO2/Km to 113 grams of CO2/km.

However, a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle powered from main the main grid is likely to produce three times more emissions than a battery electric vehicle – 647gCO2/kM, resulting in an 80 per cent increase in emissions over the petrol and diesel fleet we have now.

...the UQ study notes that on the basis of 14 million passenger and light commercial vehicles in Australia, having a car fleet that is 100 per cent battery electric will require about 37TWh of electricity per year, or about 15 per cent of the country’s generation.

Having a fleet made up 100 per cent of fuel cell vehicles will require about 157 TWh of electricity per annum, or 63 per cent of Australia’s annual generation.

Although this research is based in Australia, it does give some interesting information about the future amount of electricity that may be required there to produce hydrogen gas if a large number of vehicles were to use hydrogen fuel cells (compared with what is needed for battery electric vehicles).

Australia is being pathetic about coal. The LibNats are owned by the coal lobby......and most of them mare climate change deniers anyway. It's a very backward place in many ways. Can't see the climate for the coal.

Its like they are mates with Trump..... :-) Or the main US ally, no cannot be that cobber!

Sidestep

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#2262277 22-Jun-2019 02:59

wellygary:

Gawd, who funds these studies..

If you were going to convert Australia to mass FCVs you would steam reform Natural gas, its not there is a shortage over there....

You'd think so.. right?
Methane to Hydrogen plants (with associated full Carbon Capture & Storage) are advancing in projects around the world

However.. in Australia.. at least one Australian project led by the HySTRA cosortium with J-POWER, (a Japanese importer of Australian coal) has advanced their Lignite to Hydrogen, storage and shipping project to a (large) pilot plant stage.

They've set up a brown coal (the dirtiest type) gasification and hydrogen refining plant at the Loy Yang open cast mine in the Latrobe Valley, liquefaction and storage facility at Hastings, built a ship to transport the liquefied hydrogen to Kobe in Japan and unloading/storage facilities there.

Although the project's goal is a 'CO2-free Hydrogen Energy Supply-chain' and many of the project's aims are laudable (trialling a supply-chain of commercial Hydrogen liquification, shipping technologies), the most important part - CCS at the conversion stage - seems to be on the back-burner..
Edit: That's the CarbonNet project

It's managed to squeeze in under the umbrella of Australia's 'National Hydrogen Roadmap' (though it seems like more of a cul-de-sac), where I hope it doesn't suck too much funding away from true zero-carbon research.

At Loy Yang the existing power stations emit 14.4 million tonnes!! of greenhouse gases yearly, while supplying 1/2 of Victoria's power (a good chunk of which goes to Aluminium smelters).. so I guess a positive is that the direct conversion there of lignite to H2 is incredibly more efficient than converting it to electricity then Hydrogen.. the type of thing that leads to UofQ studies about FC vehicles having 3x the emissions of BEV vehicles..

Obraik

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#2287000 1-Aug-2019 10:12

Hydrogen in NZ has been dealt a blow, by Z Energy of all companies.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/114660225/nzs-future-is-electric-cars-not-hydrogenpowered-z-energy-concludes

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