Boeing P8 or Lockeed HC-130J, or C-130J, for RNZAF? What should we buy first?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Boeing P8 or Lockeed HC-130J, or C-130J, for RNZAF? What should we buy first?

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#2052587 10-Jul-2018 12:38

Dingbatt: The Ohakea 'Super Base' has been on the books for twenty years. Considering the entire Air Force now has less personnel than used to be in Auckland alone, you may as well put all your eggs in one basket and just have one operational base. The arguments in the past about basing maritime patrol aircraft as far north as practical to put them closer to their operational area is obviously outweighed by being able to lift a full load of fuel in the first place.
It never ceases to amaze me that people can read a set of specifications off the internet and then think they know better than people who have full knowledge of current and future roles, whose job it is to assess all the options and determine what is the best way forward. The fact they are only buying 4 aircraft to replace 6 indicates that dispatch reliability is expected to drastically improve. But also in the press release is that these aircraft will be supplimented by inshore patrol aircraft, drones and satellites.

Those who think it's pointless to have an aircraft with a weapons bay might be interested to know that every time a P3 launches on a SAR mission it has a liferaft in the bomb bay.

Who said it was pointless to have a weapons bay? Pretty sure loading a life raft into one doesn't require distance from houses which is the reason in the press release for moving the base...

Regards FireEngine

ObidiahSlope

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#2052593 10-Jul-2018 12:49

If strictly NZ needs are the criteria the P8 is a Rolls Royce solution. The primary requirement which influenced the design is the capability to destroy boomers coming out of Polyarny Inlet. This is overkill for NZ's needs.

It is an unnecessary complicated solution to look for a dismasted yacht or a fishing skiff gone missing from an atoll.

If the balloon goes up they would be welcome assistance to our allies protecting shipping choke points such a the Torres Straight or the Straights of Malacca.

In a purely NZ context a modern four engined turbo prop with radar, camera, and observer capability which can stage from remote airfields would be ideal. Unfortunately I not aware of an aircraft that meets this criteria.

Obsequious hypocrite

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#2052598 10-Jul-2018 12:56

ObidiahSlope:

If strictly NZ needs are the criteria the P8 is a Rolls Royce solution. The primary requirement which influenced the design is the capability to destroy boomers coming out of Polyarny Inlet. This is overkill for NZ's needs.

It is an unnecessary complicated solution to look for a dismasted yacht or a fishing skiff gone missing from an atoll.

If the balloon goes up they would be welcome assistance to our allies protecting shipping choke points such a the Torres Straight or the Straights of Malacca.

In a purely NZ context a modern four engined turbo prop with radar, camera, and observer capability which can stage from remote airfields would be ideal. Unfortunately I not aware of an aircraft that meets this criteria.

You do know how big our NZ RCC SAR Zone is right??? This a NZ Context

Class III searches (for boats and planes) take place over wide areas both within and beyond New Zealand. The search and rescue region covers about 30 million square kilometres of ocean around the country. Searches can stretch from Antarctica to the Pacific Islands, and are handled by the Rescue Coordination Centre New Zealand, in Lower Hutt.

Dinga96

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#2052659 10-Jul-2018 13:33

sbiddle: Expect the A400M replacement for our existing C130s to be announced within the next few months.

Mr Biddle ,you seem to be saying this is actually going to happen?

Are you serious, or just having a laugh.

I would be really keen to see these aircraft replace the Hercs.The smart money is on the C130J though and its hard to see them going for something else.

wellygary

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#2052677 10-Jul-2018 13:47

Dinga96:

I would be really keen to see these aircraft replace the Hercs.The smart money is on the C130J though and its hard to see them going for something else.

While the J's would seem an ideal replacement, they still have the issue of not being able to carry the NH90s, meaning any rapid disaster response around the pacific is limited to having them arrive by Ship....

Most other countries that have C130s, also have some other larger Tactical lift Capacity, but NZ does not.....

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#2052685 10-Jul-2018 13:55

Dingbatt:

Why was Russell "Give My Flag Back!" Norman invited onto TV to comment on the P8 decision?

Because both National, Labour and NZ First were all fully behind the deal. To find somebody anti the deal you could really only look at former and current Green party members.

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tripper1000

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#2052690 10-Jul-2018 13:57

Just to clarify, the RNZAF/P3/5 Sqn covers all the zones (inside the red lines) in the map above - not just the New Zealand SRR.

It little know fact about the P3's is that they are not simply oriented around SAR and military offensiveness. They are most commonly and routinely deployed in a border security roll. They survey and report to Customs and MPI who is entering and leaving our EEZ. Both Customs and MPI can deploy the P3 at a moments notice to find and intercept 'vessels of interest'. This can range from fishing vessels loitering suspiciously on the edge of our EEZ to vessels smuggling contraband.

N.Z. strictly controls fishing quota's for conservation and economic reasons, and surveillance and enforcement are fundamental in controlling this.

N.Z. also assists our less well equipped Pacific neighbours in their border and fishing ground surveillance, assisting in their economic security by ensuring their fishing stocks are not plundered and taken without appropriate licences being paid.

Some recent SAR's have been short and un-new-worthy because the P3 has laid eyes on vessels in the days before they were reported missing.

The upside is that the more powerful the surveillance platform, the more effective they are in these important but unsung duties. The P8 is well known for its surveillance capability, and it underscores the fact that N.Z. is serious about border and EEZ security in the Pacific.

sbiddle

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#2052714 10-Jul-2018 14:03

Dinga96:

sbiddle: Expect the A400M replacement for our existing C130s to be announced within the next few months.

Mr Biddle ,you seem to be saying this is actually going to happen?

Are you serious, or just having a laugh.

I would be really keen to see these aircraft replace the Hercs.The smart money is on the C130J though and its hard to see them going for something else.

The smart money certainly isn't on the C130J - being able to transport the NH90 is a pretty critical requirement for the replacement, and only the A400M can do this.

I'd be extremely surprised to see them opt for anything but the A400M, especially with Airbus eager to sell these planes after their chequered entry into service, and the Airbus presence already in NZ.

tripper1000

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#2052729 10-Jul-2018 14:17

Is air transport of the NH90 a requirement of the C130 replacement? I don't believe it is - ? It was always accepted from the time we signed up for the NH-90 that they would either self-deploy or be deployed via ship.

At the end of the day, the NH90 with nothing to move is largely useless, and in most cases, what it needs to move arrives on a ship. You also need to support which brings additional logistical challenges with air transport. The Canterbury resolves all these issues and has been invaluable in relief in the Pacific because it is a self sufficient floating operating base.

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#2052732 10-Jul-2018 14:21

tripper1000:

Is air transport of the NH90 a requirement of the C130 replacement? I don't believe it is - ? It was always accepted from the time we signed up for the NH-90 that they would either self-deploy or be deployed via ship.

At the end of the day, the NH90 with nothing to move is largely useless, and in most cases, what it needs to move arrives on a ship. You also need to support which brings additional logistical challenges with air transport. The Canterbury resolves all these issues and has been invaluable in relief in the Pacific because it is a self sufficient floating operating base.

My understanding has been that in recent times the focus has moved from a like for like replacement (which was the recommendation a few years ago) towards changing the airlift capabilities, especially if an aircraft could fit the NH90.

Dingbatt

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#2052741 10-Jul-2018 14:43

FireEngine:

Who said it was pointless to have a weapons bay? Pretty sure loading a life raft into one doesn't require distance from houses which is the reason in the press release for moving the base...

In the first post, the OP referenced the offensive capability of the aircraft. My point was our current P-3s also have an offensive capability. But carry liferafts in the bomb bay more often than anything else.

My information may be a little dated, but where do they arm the P-3s at the moment? I missed that as the reason for the move to Ohakea.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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wellygary

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#2052746 10-Jul-2018 14:47

tripper1000:

Is air transport of the NH90 a requirement of the C130 replacement? I don't believe it is - ? It was always accepted from the time we signed up for the NH-90 that they would either self-deploy or be deployed via ship.

One of the operational requirements or the NH90 has always been

"Quickly deployable by either C-130 Hercules or self deploying to Australia or the South Pacific. "

see page 83 "2016 major projects report" - this goal has been there since the project began

https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Major-Projects-Report-2016-Volume-2.pdf

This goal is currently rated "Partial"

"The early focus has been on self-ferry, HMNZS Canterbury, allied strategic airlift (e.g. ADF C-17), civil airlift charter e.g. Antonov. To date:

The NH90 can be deployed on the Antonov or the C-17 (though deployment on the C-17 is subject to further work).

The NH90 could be deployed by C-130, but this is not pragmatic as it would probably require a minimum of two loads and the break down and tie down schemes would have to be developed.

The NH90 can be transported by HMNZS Canterbury"

I'm pretty sure that the ability to lug a NH90 is pretty up there in the demands for new lift aircraft

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#2052770 10-Jul-2018 15:40

Poor old Whenuapai being downsized again. When I left the RNZAF in Dec 83 (Hobsonville) we had twice as many bases. But its (RNZAF) role has changed and quite rightly too. We do not need a strike capability. We do need a border watch, fisheries watch, SAR and humanitarian capability plus Army and Navy assist.

Worked on the Herc and the P3 and they are very old (airframe hours) aircraft so yes we do need replacements especially ones that will fit in with our Aussie cousins. We need parts interoperability so going it alone and being different would not be cost or operational effective.

PS: A fabulous book - HERK: HERO OF THE SKIES: THE STORY OF THE LOCKHEED C-130 AND ITS ADVENTURES AROUND THE WORLD. Great true stories. A must read for all military aircraft enthusiasts.

Whilst the difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer. However, miracles you will have to wait for.

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#2052777 10-Jul-2018 16:03

P8s aren't popular overseas:P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGb6uRIGpWs

(pinched and re-overlayed from a CNN visit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgud7vrBir4 )

Multi role drop doors, similar to Orions too. Rescue modules, SONAR probes, Torpedos (it's sold as a sub killer).., 4 missiles (yea right we can hardly afford Jav's as it is)

frankv

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#2052911 10-Jul-2018 20:42

FireEngine:

Yeah I'm not questioning the P8 decision, but we seem to be spending $1.0B or so to relocate the squadron when a much cheaper dispersed weapons facility would be a more cost-effective solution at near-zero operational hit.

I doubt that weapons storage is the big factor in the move to Ohakea. More likely, it's to free up land in Auckland for housing. Sale of that land will offset the cost. And, whilst it will cost a lot to make the move, it will centralise RNZAF operations, which should provide savings longterm.

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