What will power our vehicles in the future?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › What will power our vehicles in the future?

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1524 posts

Uber Geek

#2839981 29-Dec-2021 15:38

So it looks like Hyundai have killed their 2025 3rd gen FCEV development.

The fuel cell isnt meeting the performance requirements and way off the cost reductions.

Couple that with the terrible fcev sales in Korea, only about 1/4 of what was planned, 1/3rd of the fuelling stations and the hydrogen costs at least a third more than expected.

I expect Toyota will quietly take fcev's out back and shoot them when no one is looking and BMW will milk the EU for whatever it can in development grants then landfill them.

Gurezaemon

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#2848028 12-Jan-2022 11:27

LTT gives a considered opinion piece on the practicality of H2 cars vs. electric.

The TL:DR is that both can coexist in different usage spaces.

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Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2848031 12-Jan-2022 11:29

Can't really co-exist when vehicle makers keep dropping the tech because it's not viable...

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RobDickinson

1524 posts

Uber Geek

#2848032 12-Jan-2022 11:30

LTT are a paid for advertising channel

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2848034 12-Jan-2022 11:34

RobDickinson:

LTT are a paid for advertising channel

Most YouTube channels are. LTT generally announces when their videos are sponsored - it's generally not a problem.

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RobDickinson

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Uber Geek

#2848035 12-Jan-2022 11:39

https://www.electrive.com/2022/01/11/montpellier-foregoes-hydrogen-project-for-battery-electric-buses-for-now/

Montpellier shelves a plan for 50 hydrogen buses in place of battery electric due to hydrogen fuel costing 6 times as much.

Gurezaemon

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#2848043 12-Jan-2022 11:46

RobDickinson:

LTT are a paid for advertising channel

I'm not sure who you think they're shilling for - the explicit takeaway was "you shouldn't buy the Mirai". It did, however, offer other plausible usage scenarios that would be complementary to pure EVs.

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RobDickinson

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#2848044 12-Jan-2022 11:49

I only made it about half way through, its pure fantasy.

Rikkitic

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#2848051 12-Jan-2022 12:18

RobDickinson:

I only made it about half way through, its pure fantasy.

You really don't like hydrogen, do you?

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Ge0rge

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#2848053 12-Jan-2022 12:22

Rikkitic:
RobDickinson:

I only made it about half way through, its pure fantasy.

You really don't like hydrogen, do you?

Elon isn't preaching it, so it can't be The Way...

RobDickinson

1524 posts

Uber Geek

#2848055 12-Jan-2022 12:30

Rikkitic:

RobDickinson:

I only made it about half way through, its pure fantasy.

You really don't like hydrogen, do you?

Try going back reading my posts in here. I really dislike the misapplication of hydrogen as a stalling factor for introducing renewables in transport.

It certainly has some useful real world applications ( or at least a chance at), passenger cars isnt it.

Rikkitic

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#2848056 12-Jan-2022 12:35

What about hydrogen as an ICE fuel replacement? It doesn't have to be fuel cells. From the (very) little I know, the conversion is easy and the main issue is just reduced range due to lower energy content.

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RobDickinson

1524 posts

Uber Geek

#2848057 12-Jan-2022 12:37

Rikkitic:

What about hydrogen as an ICE fuel replacement? It doesn't have to be fuel cells. From the (very) little I know, the conversion is easy and the main issue is just reduced range due to lower energy content.

Terrible from an energy and efficiency point of view, Fuel cells are already poor, burning it cuts that down by about 75%, for about half the power of using petrol.

Oh and you still get some pollutants (mostly NOx) where people are living and breathing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle#Pollutant_emissions

Scott3

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#2848076 12-Jan-2022 13:08

Rikkitic:

What about hydrogen as an ICE fuel replacement? It doesn't have to be fuel cells. From the (very) little I know, the conversion is easy and the main issue is just reduced range due to lower energy content.

Technically feasible, but realistically unworkable for light cars outside niche applications, like demo cars, collectibles etc.

The reason fuel cells are the route most followed, is they are far more efficient (like double or more) than burning the fuel in a piston engine.

When you are running a fuel that is: 1. Expsnsive, and 2. Hard to store, this is a huge issue.

Take a current generation Mirai. 647km EPA rated range on base spec, 603.5 km epa rated range on top spec. Thats on 5kg of hydrogen, stored at 70MPa (10,000 PSI), in the tanks with a combined volume of 122.4 liters. Not really realistic to increase this caring capacity in a sedan, due to space constraints.

Those range numbers are barely beating longer range EV's. Cutting range in half or worse is not really going to be salable to consumers, given hydrogen stations are going to be rare for at least some time, and you can't (without large expense) refuel at home.

Situation may be different in spaces such as aviation, marine etc, where cost is a lesser concern, and scale may mean that cryogenic storage or hydrogen is workable.

Obraik

2123 posts

Uber Geek

#2848193 12-Jan-2022 13:45

Rikkitic:

What about hydrogen as an ICE fuel replacement? It doesn't have to be fuel cells. From the (very) little I know, the conversion is easy and the main issue is just reduced range due to lower energy content.

TBH, with how active you are in the Climate Change thread, I'm surprised how pro-Hydrogen you are.

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