The Decline of Diesel.....Ongoing.

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#2044165 26-Jun-2018 15:24

Yep you gotta match the vehicle to the use. For lower mileage drivers I doubt diesel was ever worth it - not enough k's to save enough on fuel to recover the extra amount spent on purchase and annual service.

But for anyone regularly towing, driving a heavy load, or doing a large mileage then diesel is simply fantastic. The CO2 emission is lower than petrol and if properly mainained the NOx is cleaned out by the EGR.

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#2044168 26-Jun-2018 15:31

MikeB4:

In order for the DPF to incinerate the carbon nano particles it has to achieve high temperature and the vehicle needs to be driven in a set of circumstances to allow all this to happen. That at speeds normally associated with highway speeds for a sustained period of time of around 60 minutes. The vehicle has to achieve this at sustained driving style where the vehicle is free flowing in top gear. The DPF will not incinerate the carbon nano particles unless this set of circumstances are achieved. This also need to occur at a regular cycle of around every 400 kilometers of driving time. If this is not done the DPF becomes blocked and will need to be replaced and this is not cheap,but worse than that the vehicle will increasingly belch gases ate particulates that are very toxic to humans. Therefore this is why diesels cars and cities just do not go together.

Of course I maybe wrong as I am going from memory of what my late father told me quite a few years back. He was an auto engineer.

Well, as an owner of a diesel with a DPF, I can tell you based on direct personal experience the 'burn off' requires neither that speed or that length of time - the one in my car works at 80kmh or faster, and takes approximately 15 minutes.

That's not to say it's not frustrating, but I am always mindful when my car starts the cycle and I'll head out straight onto the open road to ensure the process completes. It's a damn annoying 'feature' that I was unaware of before buying the car.

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#2044171 26-Jun-2018 15:41

jonathan18:

MikeB4:

In order for the DPF to incinerate the carbon nano particles it has to achieve high temperature and the vehicle needs to be driven in a set of circumstances to allow all this to happen. That at speeds normally associated with highway speeds for a sustained period of time of around 60 minutes. The vehicle has to achieve this at sustained driving style where the vehicle is free flowing in top gear. The DPF will not incinerate the carbon nano particles unless this set of circumstances are achieved. This also need to occur at a regular cycle of around every 400 kilometers of driving time. If this is not done the DPF becomes blocked and will need to be replaced and this is not cheap,but worse than that the vehicle will increasingly belch gases ate particulates that are very toxic to humans. Therefore this is why diesels cars and cities just do not go together.

Of course I maybe wrong as I am going from memory of what my late father told me quite a few years back. He was an auto engineer.

Well, as an owner of a diesel with a DPF, I can tell you based on direct personal experience the 'burn off' requires neither that speed or that length of time - the one in my car works at 80kmh or faster, and takes approximately 15 minutes.

That's not to say it's not frustrating, but I am always mindful when my car starts the cycle and I'll head out straight onto the open road to ensure the process completes. It's a damn annoying 'feature' that I was unaware of before buying the car.

Petrol cars do a similar process just not so invasive. The Catalytic converter deals to this and of course they need servicing especially when they start smelling like Rotorua.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Coil

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#2044172 26-Jun-2018 15:45

jonathan18:

MikeB4:

In order for the DPF to incinerate the carbon nano particles it has to achieve high temperature and the vehicle needs to be driven in a set of circumstances to allow all this to happen. That at speeds normally associated with highway speeds for a sustained period of time of around 60 minutes. The vehicle has to achieve this at sustained driving style where the vehicle is free flowing in top gear. The DPF will not incinerate the carbon nano particles unless this set of circumstances are achieved. This also need to occur at a regular cycle of around every 400 kilometers of driving time. If this is not done the DPF becomes blocked and will need to be replaced and this is not cheap,but worse than that the vehicle will increasingly belch gases ate particulates that are very toxic to humans. Therefore this is why diesels cars and cities just do not go together.

Of course I maybe wrong as I am going from memory of what my late father told me quite a few years back. He was an auto engineer.

Well, as an owner of a diesel with a DPF, I can tell you based on direct personal experience the 'burn off' requires neither that speed or that length of time - the one in my car works at 80kmh or faster, and takes approximately 15 minutes.

That's not to say it's not frustrating, but I am always mindful when my car starts the cycle and I'll head out straight onto the open road to ensure the process completes. It's a damn annoying 'feature' that I was unaware of before buying the car.

You will find technically there are more than just speed circumstances for a DPF burn off. To keep it simple for end users they say motorway speed and a sustained period of time. I do not believe there is a single road in the north island where you can do 100 constantly for 60 minutes either. (Heck give me some semi slicks and I'll give it a shot in the dry..)

I have never seen a DPF replacement on a VW small diesel. Polo, Poosat and Golf... Those are mostly locked to the city and seem to drive around fine (this defeats your speed and time examples). How they do it is by running over rich and dumping unburnt fuel in on the exhaust stroke to clean them when running about. This raises the EGT which then burns the nasties off.
I am not trying to say you are wrong @MikeB4 but add onto what you are saying as it seems to paint Diesel with a bad brush.

Also, I have always wondered myself.. Those particles are trapped in the DPF. They are not turned into water or gold but remain in the hazardous form. How does super heating those elements and then releasing them to atmosphere make them safe?

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#2044175 26-Jun-2018 15:49

Coil:

jonathan18:

MikeB4:

In order for the DPF to incinerate the carbon nano particles it has to achieve high temperature and the vehicle needs to be driven in a set of circumstances to allow all this to happen. That at speeds normally associated with highway speeds for a sustained period of time of around 60 minutes. The vehicle has to achieve this at sustained driving style where the vehicle is free flowing in top gear. The DPF will not incinerate the carbon nano particles unless this set of circumstances are achieved. This also need to occur at a regular cycle of around every 400 kilometers of driving time. If this is not done the DPF becomes blocked and will need to be replaced and this is not cheap,but worse than that the vehicle will increasingly belch gases ate particulates that are very toxic to humans. Therefore this is why diesels cars and cities just do not go together.

Of course I maybe wrong as I am going from memory of what my late father told me quite a few years back. He was an auto engineer.

Well, as an owner of a diesel with a DPF, I can tell you based on direct personal experience the 'burn off' requires neither that speed or that length of time - the one in my car works at 80kmh or faster, and takes approximately 15 minutes.

That's not to say it's not frustrating, but I am always mindful when my car starts the cycle and I'll head out straight onto the open road to ensure the process completes. It's a damn annoying 'feature' that I was unaware of before buying the car.

Also, I have always wondered myself.. Those particles are trapped in the DPF. They are not turned into water or gold but remain in the hazardous form. How does super heating those elements and then releasing them to atmosphere make them safe?

They are sent to a parallel universe and the inhabitants are really pissed at us and are coming.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Coil

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#2044177 26-Jun-2018 15:53

MikeB4:

Coil:

jonathan18:

MikeB4:

In order for the DPF to incinerate the carbon nano particles it has to achieve high temperature and the vehicle needs to be driven in a set of circumstances to allow all this to happen. That at speeds normally associated with highway speeds for a sustained period of time of around 60 minutes. The vehicle has to achieve this at sustained driving style where the vehicle is free flowing in top gear. The DPF will not incinerate the carbon nano particles unless this set of circumstances are achieved. This also need to occur at a regular cycle of around every 400 kilometers of driving time. If this is not done the DPF becomes blocked and will need to be replaced and this is not cheap,but worse than that the vehicle will increasingly belch gases ate particulates that are very toxic to humans. Therefore this is why diesels cars and cities just do not go together.

Of course I maybe wrong as I am going from memory of what my late father told me quite a few years back. He was an auto engineer.

Well, as an owner of a diesel with a DPF, I can tell you based on direct personal experience the 'burn off' requires neither that speed or that length of time - the one in my car works at 80kmh or faster, and takes approximately 15 minutes.

That's not to say it's not frustrating, but I am always mindful when my car starts the cycle and I'll head out straight onto the open road to ensure the process completes. It's a damn annoying 'feature' that I was unaware of before buying the car.

Also, I have always wondered myself.. Those particles are trapped in the DPF. They are not turned into water or gold but remain in the hazardous form. How does super heating those elements and then releasing them to atmosphere make them safe?

They are sent to a parallel universe and the inhabitants are really pissed at us and are coming.

Either that or we got some pretty toxic stretches of road :)

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#2044178 26-Jun-2018 15:56

I had always assumed that the soot is simply carbon and was burned (oxidised) away (diesel exhaust carries a lot more O2 than petrol exhaust), i.e converted into CO2. But having said that, I would have thought combusting it would damage the filter! Hard to find a straightforward answer on the interweb.

MikeB4

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#2044179 26-Jun-2018 15:57

Yeah the sooner we see the end of diesel for general transport the better.

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Batman

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#2044249 26-Jun-2018 19:01

Petrol forced induction FTW!

...

Ok Hybrid Petrol forced induction wins too!

Scott3

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#2044340 26-Jun-2018 20:36

kryptonjohn:

networkn:

I can't see the point of Hybrid. Two Engines, two fuel types.. I believe companies should be focusing on decent range electric only cars if that's the future.

So true. And the energy in that hybrid car's battery started out as petrol in the tank, less all the various conversion losses and all the efficiency drawbacks of carrying around the extra weight of batteries and electric motors.

Hybrid is a waste of time - get a PEV or a PHEV if you want the get-home insurance of the petrol tank.

Hybrids (particually the Toyota ones) are great at what they do.

Yes, they are more complex than single motor vehicles, but that doesn't seem to hurt their reliability.

Yes they are heavier than petrol only vehicle, but that doesn't seem to impact efficiency.

Generally the dedicated hybrids are more efficient that PHEV's once their battery is depleted.

Hybrids are currently the cheapest, lowest emission way to spend a lot of time on the road without the downtime of charging stops. This makes them ideal for high mileage applications (such as taxi's).

Batman: Maybe they need to re-program the ECU to service the DPF in city driving conditions!

It is possible, the current Toyota land-cruiser 70, and the US market ford transit transit both have the ability to regen the DPF at idle / low speeds (the former for mine duty, the latter for city deliveries). That said, you need the hardware to inject (and ignite) fuel into the exhaust line upstream of the DPF to get the extra temperature.

kryptonjohn:

Yep you gotta match the vehicle to the use. For lower mileage drivers I doubt diesel was ever worth it - not enough k's to save enough on fuel to recover the extra amount spent on purchase and annual service.

But for anyone regularly towing, driving a heavy load, or doing a large mileage then diesel is simply fantastic. The CO2 emission is lower than petrol and if properly mainained the NOx is cleaned out by the EGR.

With the NZ tax environment, you need to either be doing a lot of towing, or favor a larger vehicle for diesel power to make financial sense. the 6.2c/km road user charges mean that most smaller cars will be cheaper to run on petrol than diesel.

Coil:

...

I have never seen a DPF replacement on a VW small diesel. Polo, Poosat and Golf... Those are mostly locked to the city and seem to drive around fine (this defeats your speed and time examples). How they do it is by running over rich and dumping unburnt fuel in on the exhaust stroke to clean them when running about. This raises the EGT which then burns the nasties off.
I am not trying to say you are wrong @MikeB4 but add onto what you are saying as it seems to paint Diesel with a bad brush.

...

VW is moving away from diesel for it's smaller cars (in the NZ market at least). The Polo hasn't been available in diesel for quite a few years. When the golf was refreshed, it wasn't available in diesel (although you can now get it in diesel "indent only").

That said, most of the bad rep relating to DPF's seems to be unevenly distributed around the automakers, with mazda and toyota taking the brunt of it.

Toyota has actual issues (that they haven't acknowledged) with some of their DPF's, and they can fail even if you do enough open road driving.

Was reading an aussie forum where one toyota dealership was replacing 3 DPF's per week under warranty (many DPF Japanese cars are still in warranty), and people were very concerned about the cost of a failure out of the warranty.

I hear less of dpf issues with euro brands (other than when people ignore the light that tells them to go for a drive on the moterway / open road)

Geektastic

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#2044492 27-Jun-2018 00:34

We just bought a Volvo XC 70 D5.

I flew up to Auckland to get it. I drove back to home, about 800km, and still had enough left for another 360km.

No, I won't be buying a battery car any time soon.

When they get to 1000km range and 3 minute charging, I will look again.

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Geektastic

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#2044493 27-Jun-2018 00:36

Batman:

Petrol forced induction FTW!

...

Ok Hybrid Petrol forced induction wins too!

As the owner of a 4.2 litre supercharged Range Rover, I agree...!

MikeB4

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#2044511 27-Jun-2018 06:37

@Geektastic 1,100 k in a vehicle with a 70 litre tank that averages makers claim 8-9 l/100km, at best probably closer to 11l/100km?

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

kryptonjohn

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#2044514 27-Jun-2018 06:59

Yes, easily. The manufacturer figure is combined urban and motorway.
My touareg's computer retorts around 5l/100 if driving in a straight line at 80kph. On a long trip the computer routinely reports 7.0 l/100km. The manufacturer stated number is 7.4. If we had autobahns I would be achieving 6.0 on long trips.

plod

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#2044515 27-Jun-2018 06:59

Mean while Ford US is to stop selling all passenger car except the mustang by 2020. Concentrating on SUV and pickups. Which flys in the face of what we should be doing. In NZ the top selling cars are SUVs and pickups/Utes which are mostly diesels. The second hand import market is full of SUVs, which is also against the trend we should be having. On the up side the second hand imports has also brought in very good range of hybrids especially from Toyota and Nissan. Large sedans and SUV included. Our love affair with big trucks isn’t seeing the demise of diiesels just yet.

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