Hybrid cars, and which ones are available these days

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#2845465 8-Jan-2022 22:07

Obraik:

It depends what your daily distance travelled is, how often you might do a trip that exceeds that and and how big your budget is. You can get a used Nissan Leaf under $10k these days, but the range would be around 100-120km. If all you're really using it for is going for getting to and from work, to the shops, or school. If you like to drive to a neighbouring city each month then that might not be so practical.

As for cost of electricity, you'll probably find that your electricity bill will go down since a number of the power companies offer cheaper offpeak rates if you have an EV. In Christchurch, Meridian gives me an offpeak rate of $0.09/kWh. My weekly work commute of 250km costs around $3.60 - in an equivilant petrol car that would cost me $42

Very short usually, any road trip would mostly be around Auckland. Haven't been too far for ages, hence why I thought a hybrid would be good if I, say, just wanted to drive to Wellington one day to see family. Something like that might be a bit of a challenge for a Leaf, but not too bad for a hybrid, no?

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#2845488 8-Jan-2022 23:15

quickymart:

Thanks again for all the comments so far, very interesting!

I did see a few Aquas around today and they look interesting.

Query - is (or was) a Toyota Platz a hybrid?

Re, The platz, it was discontinued in 2005 (excl china), which was before Toyota started making a massive range of hybrids. So no hybrid version to my knowledge.

Does look vaguely similar to the 1st gen Prius through. (don't buy a 1st gen Prius. Get 2nd gen or newer if you go that route).

If you are looking for that form factor (very small sedan), you could consider the Corolla Axio hybrid. Cheapist on trademe is a 2014 at $10,250 ONO +ORC. Note that this is the "narrow" version of the corolla. Despite the name it is a completly differnt car, much smaller than the likes of the corolla sedan sold in NZ. (which is actually fairly big these days)

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Yes there are large number of Toyota Aqua's. That same car was sold here NZ new as the Prius C. The Aqua was the top selling car in japan for a bunch of years (sometimes by a big margin), so it is no surprise that there is a flood of used imports in NZ now. Rated at 3.7L/100km, which is pretty amazing, but I think the Prius just beats it for economy.

RUKI owned one (perhaps still does), so can probiably give more info.

I had one as a rental car on Waiheke. Perfectly adequate car. Drove fine, (but I didn't go out of 50km/h zones), tight turning circle, Pritty good interior and boot space given it is such a small car. Pretty unrefined (in terms of noise, vibration etc) compared to what I am used to though (Lexus hybrid SUV & Nissan leaf), but I think this comes with territory in the economy hatch segment. Note that the back seat dosn't fold flat to the boot floor (bad for putting big things in, but means you get a deeper boot.

As mentioned prior, many of these lack immobilizer's, and the media is reporting them as getting popular with thieves. - Insist on one with an immobilizer, or push button start. If you want side airbags, you would need to see out out with them, as economy cars in japan often lack them on lower trim levels.

RUKI: Re: SAI - you would have issues with language. Embedded stereo not practical to replace. Dash is not possible to convert.
Why bother buying SAI then at all?

Re: Nissan e-Power. Don't. Rubbish implementation. Doesn't even close by any means to Prius C /Aqua. Tested few as was asked to program keys.
It roars its engine whenever it likes, stationary as well vs Prius C goes in / out of the garage in EV mode always. Prius C - up to 2kms new in EV mode at low speeds - so parking always without fumes. No spare wheel in Nissan. Aqua has it.

Personally I hate non English screens in car's, and would be very reluctant to buy one that isn't English (or that I could have converted, like my leaf). But it seems large number of car buyers don't care (Based on what I see in the market

As to why somebody would buy a Sai, It is basically the Same as a Lexus HS250h. So a compact luxury sedan, would have a lot more accoustic insulation and be far more refined than the Axio / Aqua / Fielder hybrid etc. Highly sepecifed examples can be found, with stuff like Projection HID headlights, dual zone climate control, Auirbargs built into front seats (in add ion to the side airbags). It also uses a 2.4L engine power-train, making a combined system output of 140kW. Quite a bit more than the 73.6kW of the aqua, or 100kW of the 3rd gen prius.

Thanks for the info on the Note e-power. Never been in one myself (would like to try it out). Specification's is really good, pity the implementation is poor.

Regarding the engine revving when stationary, When I had a BMW i3 REX (pure series plug in hybrid, engine only turns a generator), the engine would stop when stationary, or going very slow. Meant if the battery was flat and I was in stop start traffic, the engine would constantly be stopping and starting which I found annoying too. Pity Nissan didn't put an EV mode button to stop the engine from starting when going out of the garage etc.

Scott3

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#2845491 8-Jan-2022 23:31

quickymart:

Very short usually, any road trip would mostly be around Auckland. Haven't been too far for ages, hence why I thought a hybrid would be good if I, say, just wanted to drive to Wellington one day to see family. Something like that might be a bit of a challenge for a Leaf, but not too bad for a hybrid, no?

Absolute, a hybrid car is good for driving long distance. Something like an aqua is rated at 3.7L/100km, and the tank is 36 liters, so about a 970km theoretical range, and an abundant network of petrol stations to add more fuel.

With the leaf, going Auckland - Wellington really depends on your budget. With a 62kWh leaf e-plus ($40k), which has a 350km range, it wouldn't be too much of a big deal. Two fast charges would do it. One long lunch somewhere, and another shorter stop elsewhere.

But basically non-viable with a 24kWh, ($12,500 a year ago) leaf like mine. Just too time consuming.

scottjpalmer

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#2845558 9-Jan-2022 07:49

My most regular drive is a 90km 1hr20 drive which I do a couple of times a week. In the middle of that drive is 10min hill climb then 10min descent (Remutakas, north east of Wellington) and the rest of the drive is mostly 80-100kmh with a few traffic lights on the Wellington side. Am I going to get much benefit from a hybrid or will that sort of drive just be burning petrol the whole time? I'm guessing the Aqua or similar will be pretty underpowered for the hill climb?

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#2845560 9-Jan-2022 08:39

scottjpalmer: My most regular drive is a 90km 1hr20 drive which I do a couple of times a week. In the middle of that drive is 10min hill climb then 10min descent (Remutakas, north east of Wellington) and the rest of the drive is mostly 80-100kmh with a few traffic lights on the Wellington side. Am I going to get much benefit from a hybrid or will that sort of drive just be burning petrol the whole time? I'm guessing the Aqua or similar will be pretty underpowered for the hill climb?

A non plug-in hybrid ultimately gets all of its energy from its petrol tank. That is why I detest Toyota’s “Self Charging Hybrid” marketing bs. However, in the drive you describe, the hybrid will not run its ICE at the traffic lights (unless the battery is at its lower limit). It will definitely be running going up the hill but is likely to be assisted by the electric motor so the ICE can run at its most efficient rpm and torque. I certainly have no complaints about the power available going uphill in my Camry although the engine does sound like someone is strangling a goat! Going down the other side the ICE will be off and regenerative braking will refill the battery. If you put your foot on the brake it will regenerate up to a maximum rate and then apply the physical brakes. Certainly in the Toyota system it will attempt to stop the ICE whenever it can. Unlike a Stop/Start system in something like a Mazda, the Toyota doesn’t have a starter motor, that job is done by the two Motor-Generators in the gearbox.

The Camry replaced a V6 Maxima, so a similar sized vehicle. Day in day out the Camry returns 5.2l/100km, and on an Auckland-Hamilton-Auckland trip I can see 4.7 without too much effort. The Maxima would have done 10l/100km and 8l/100km in similar circumstances.

Edit: As well as being wrong about the Outlander transmission (although I was told the Eclipse PHEV was CVT) I was also in error about the Niro. It uses a DCT, but I have a fairly low opinion of those as well.

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RUKI

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#2845572 9-Jan-2022 09:52

Our Prius C NZ new 2012, high spec: color dash, NZ GPS, immobilizer, push button start, mag wheels, cruise control, will be for sale from 1 April 2022.
Re: assumed maintenance - oil filter + oil. That is it. No any other maintenance or parts ever required.
We do not carry pets, hence cooling fan in hybrid battery is clean. Mileage is low, battery in perfect condition.
Re: boot space / folding rear chairs - once transported 4 X Trellis (180 X 60 cm) at once with the hatch partially closed.

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Forgot to mention: I see a lot of questions recently on other forums about 7-seater.
FYI: There is Toyota Sienta 7-seater hybrid (NHP 170) and non hybrid, very popular in Singapore, about 25 of those on Trademe.

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#2845612 9-Jan-2022 12:58

quickymart:

Very short usually, any road trip would mostly be around Auckland. Haven't been too far for ages, hence why I thought a hybrid would be good if I, say, just wanted to drive to Wellington one day to see family. Something like that might be a bit of a challenge for a Leaf, but not too bad for a hybrid, no?

It sounds like for 99.9% of your journeys that a full EV would more than satisfy your needs. It depends how often that "drive to Wellington to see family" happens though. I certainly wouldn't want to take a "commuter Leaf" from Auckland to Wellington, that would be a tedious experience for most people. However, if it's once every two years or even once a year then hiring another vehicle for that journey or if you've got a good relationship with friends, swapping vehicles for the weekend are solutions that others in this scenario use.

This isn't a view that everyone shares with me, but I feel like buying a vehicle for something that you might only use it for once or twice during the time you own it isn't the best way to buy a vehicle. Rather, the vehicle should provide the best benefit for the majority of what you'll use it for. For daily commuting, you really can't beat an EV for that. Using a 2012 Toyota Aqua as an example, which is said to have a fuel economy of 3.9L/100km, it would cost me $23 for my weekly 250km of commuting. In my EV it costs me $3. Performance wise, the EV would feel much zippier than the Aqua.

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alasta

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#2845641 9-Jan-2022 14:51

I have a question;

The specifications for Toyota hybrids quote power and torque outputs for the 'combined system', and somewhat lower figures for the petrol engine alone.

Does this mean that the combined system outputs can be delivered until the battery is depleted, and then only the petrol engine outputs are available? i.e. a sudden drop in power and torque if a hill incline is too long for the battery to sustain?

Mattnzl

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#2845671 9-Jan-2022 16:32

alasta:

Does this mean that the combined system outputs can be delivered until the battery is depleted, and then only the petrol engine outputs are available? i.e. a sudden drop in power and torque if a hill incline is too long for the battery to sustain?

In theory - yes, but that would assume you are running at full power/foot flat to the floor the whole time up the hill which would be unusual.

In practice (older 1.5 Prius up the Kaimai's) at the bottom of the climb the petrol motor is running at medium revs, but as the battery nears depletion the petrol motor rev's increase to compensate. If you get the Turtle icon on the dash (flat battery) then it runs at max revs (I think ~4500rpm) and definitely looses power.

Usually get stuck behind a truck/campervan at some stage though, so the Turtle hasn't made an appearance very often ;-)

Dingbatt

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#2845672 9-Jan-2022 16:34

The way the eCVT operates the electric motors determine the gear ratio so there must be some battery power available even when the hybrid battery shows as depleted. In the case of my Camry the bottom two battery bars turn blue and the ICE runs continuously to recharge it. Toyota system runs the battery between 30 and 80% (from memory) to prolong the battery life.

I expect if the battery ever became completely depleted you would get a Hybrid System Fault ⚠️ come up.

While majorly touching wood, I have driven up some pretty steep and long hills with no problems.

Edit: But I see mattnzl has posted of experience with the Prius, so that is perhaps more relevant.

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Scott3

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#2845780 9-Jan-2022 16:53

scottjpalmer: My most regular drive is a 90km 1hr20 drive which I do a couple of times a week. In the middle of that drive is 10min hill climb then 10min descent (Remutakas, north east of Wellington) and the rest of the drive is mostly 80-100kmh with a few traffic lights on the Wellington side. Am I going to get much benefit from a hybrid or will that sort of drive just be burning petrol the whole time? I'm guessing the Aqua or similar will be pretty underpowered for the hill climb?

Hybrids really come into their own in contested cities. Sometimes using in the ball park half or less the fuel of a similar petrol vehicle. On the open road, hybrids will still comfortable beat the non hybrids for fuel economy, but the margin is less 17% & 23% respectively on examples below. I would say cira 20% fuel saving is still worthwhile...

Car, Urban, Extra urban (all listed cars run 91Ron)

Yaris Hybrid 85 kW system 2.8L/100km 3.6L/100km.
Yaris petrol 88kW 6.1L/100km 4.2L/100km.

Rav4 GLX AWD hybrid 163kW 5.0L/100km 4.8L/100km.
Rav4 GLX AWD Petrol 152kW 8.8L/100km 5.9L/100km.

Regarding an aqua being under-powered, it really depends what i is used to.

We have got to the point with modern cars, that powerful powertrains are more about rapid acceleration, and added refinement in not needing to shift down as much to go up hills, rather than needing power to avoid crawling up hills.

1st gen aqua (the common one here) has a system total output 74kW, in a cira 1140 kg max kerb weight car. Works out to 65kW/1000kg. Still better than the current Toyota Prado that people pay $95,000 for. (2395kg max kerb weight & 150kW = 62.6kW/tonne), and much better than the Prado prior to it's recent face-lift when the power was 130kW (54kW/1000kg.)

I would say, as long as you are happy to listen to the engine roar as it works hard, an aqua is going to be able to hold the speed limit up most hills.

Of course if you want something more powerful, the yaris hybrid is 85kW, corolla hybrid is 90kW, 3rd gen prius is 100kW, Toyota Sai / lexus HS250h is 139kW (unknown fuel requrement), current Camry hybrid is 160kW (on 95RON), Lexus IS300h is 164kW (on 95Ron), lexus GS450h is 253kW (on 95Ron).

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#2845786 9-Jan-2022 17:14

Our Prius C actual average is 4.1 L/100 km.
The hybrid battery has 20 standard Toyota NP2 modules which makes it the easiest and cheapest hybrid battery to rebuild.
In comparison:
Prius - 28 of the same modules
Old 2001-2003 Prius - 38 modules
Camry - 34
Some model Lexus - 40

I remember was given Lexus battery for testing - 2 failed modules out of 40. 38 good modules formed perfect pack as a donor for old 2003 Prius

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Scott3

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#2845796 9-Jan-2022 17:45

alasta:

I have a question;

The specifications for Toyota hybrids quote power and torque outputs for the 'combined system', and somewhat lower figures for the petrol engine alone.

Does this mean that the combined system outputs can be delivered until the battery is depleted, and then only the petrol engine outputs are available? i.e. a sudden drop in power and torque if a hill incline is too long for the battery to sustain?

Short answer is, in theory, yes.

Pretty much all hybrid's cars, are capable of outputting more power than the engine alone, by drawing energy from the battery pack. Of course this an only last as long as there is power in available in the battery pack, so if you kept your foot to the floor for an extended period, eventually you would end up depleting the traction battery, and the output of the car would be restricted to the output of the petrol engine.

Hasn't ever happened on my hybrid. Actively tried to discharge the battery on mine, by driving quickly up a fairly steep hill (but not super long as it was in northland), while towing a 1.5 tonne trailer. Didn't even notice any depletion on the dash graph. Should note that the RX400h has a 155kW engine, and a 200kW system output so is more powerfully than most.

Like Mattnzl, I have herd stories of people hitting turtle / tortoise mode in gen 2 (1.5L) Prius just before the summer of the Kaimai's when driven hard with a full load of people and stuff. That one has a 57kW engine & 82kW system output, so it would mane a loss of 30% of your power.

Aqua (1st gen) has a 54kW engine & 74kW system output, so turtle mode would be a 27% loss in power. Think it would be extremely rare somebody would deplete the battery in NZ (barring towing, big roof loads, etc.). Our speeds & mountains are lower than places like the USA. Unlikely that a little hatchback would need more than 54kW for extended periods of time.

I used to own a BMW i3 REX. It has to be one of the more extreme example's. 125kW electric output, and a 25kW (660cc) generator under the boot floor. I never had any issues my ownership in NZ, (our speeds are fairly low compared to the likes of the USA). However there were a few upset people and a lawsuit in the USA. i3's have a 22 / 33 / 37.9kWh batteries, and outside of the USA, they have a mode which told the REX to run as required to keep the same charge level as when the button was pressed, so a huge buffer if you saved the electric running to the end of your long trip. In the USA, however (without coding the car), this ability was disabled for the car would be eligible for some EV subsidy. As such, the REX would only kick in at 8% charge, and wouldn't be able to keep up going up mountains, or very high speeds (80mph / 130km/h+). As going from a 125 kW car to a 25kW car on a mountain incline would not be very nice.

@dingbat, It is a fair bet that the hybrid car manufacturer would have coded the system such that output power is restricted at some lower battery charge limit slightly above full depletion, therefore keeping full operation of the vehicle abet at a lower power level. But good to know that no driving situation in NZ has been harsh enough to test that limit for the Camry.

RUKI

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#2845887 9-Jan-2022 19:54

Re: Camry Hybrid. One of the most popular comfortable to drive, spacious Toyota Hybrids. Hence preferred choice by Auckland Co-op Taxi. And preferred choice for taxi in Australia. However, be aware of it's length. May not fit into every one's garage.

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#2846706 11-Jan-2022 12:59

I've rented the corolla and Camry hybrids quite a few times. The Corolla is underpowered, but very economical. The Camry is quite a nice car, and fun in sports mode. If driven sensibly it seems to use about 5L per 100km (highway/motorway and a little urban), which is good for big car. The sunroof version lacks head room.

Mike

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