EU Bans ICE cars from 2035. June 29 2022

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#2936621 30-Jun-2022 18:52

gzt:
Scott3: Globally battery production (incl raw materials) is going to be a big issue. Really everything else pales in comparison.

Toyota may still believe they can beat this with hydrogen, and who knows. At the moment hydrogen logistics look a lot harder than the constant announcements of new battery technologies and materials : ).

Arent they going hard on Sold State?

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#2936669 30-Jun-2022 19:14

Everyone else is on board with that too, elsewhere:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/06/solid-power-begins-pilot-production-of-solid-state-ev-battery.html (Ford, BMW)

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#2936683 30-Jun-2022 20:50

China seems to keep doors open to Hybrids, and Plug in Hybrids
Others may actually be meaning this as well.

The average or below average Kiwi relies on Japanese second hand imports.
So we may depend on how Japan goes for a while.
Toyota seems to be betting on its own partners Solid State technology for long term.

Proving them in smaller capacities of hybrids before moving to full electric.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38711469/toyota-solid-state-batteries-2025/

Japan also has a problem with its electricity generation that's gonna take time too.
Just remember guys don't put your backup generators and switchgear in the basement.
The story of how the sister plant down the coast was saved.
https://hbr.org/2014/07/how-the-other-fukushima-plant-survived

Anyway future Governments are going to need to invest 'heavily' in 'great' public transport.
This will need to include comfortable, fast intercity transport ?
Aeroplanes could get tricky.

You could just pump surpluses into tax reductions.
Future generations can deal with it when its too late.

Big transitions are mostly messy and betting farm on a smooth transition might be risky.

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#2936744 30-Jun-2022 21:54

As a European and German here in Europe and Germany, I think it is not lost on me that it is mainly due to the infrastructure for alternative means of transport that customers are increasingly demanding. In this respect, the future development no longer lies exclusively with the car companies. These EU decisions are important in order to be able to initiate a rethink in society as well. Internal combustion engines will certainly be a relic of the past and will certainly be around for a while in the future classic car sector. But it is already clear here that we will see these dinosaurs die out.

The question is rather still: batteries or hydrogen - and what about generation and infrastructure?
According to my contacts with development engineers in various industries, this applies to cars, aircraft (batteries are no option) and large ships - certainly railroads as well. :-)

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WyleECoyoteNZ

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#2936745 30-Jun-2022 21:55

Oh, the irony in this.

With the Russia situation, the Russian's are giving Europe\Germany less gas, meaning Germany has had to fire up its coal plants

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/energy/germany-russia-gas-supplies-winter-intl/index.html

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#2936746 30-Jun-2022 21:58

WyleECoyoteNZ:

Oh, the irony in this.

With the Russia situation, the Russian's are giving Europe\Germany less gas, meaning Germany has had to fire up its coal plants

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/energy/germany-russia-gas-supplies-winter-intl/index.html

With regard to the current situation with Russia, one must distinguish between crash actions and long-term strategy. And as always, "necessity is the mother of invention" ... this has always been true in the world and for Germans in particular. One has to take this as a chance to leave our comfort zone (literally, but we don’t really fear it - well except maybe the media). When will you do? ;-)

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#2936757 30-Jun-2022 22:25

Tinkerisk:

As a European and German here in Europe and Germany, I think it is not lost on me that it is mainly due to the infrastructure for alternative means of transport that customers are increasingly demanding. In this respect, the future development no longer lies exclusively with the car companies. These EU decisions are important in order to be able to initiate a rethink in society as well. Internal combustion engines will certainly be a relic of the past and will certainly be around for a while in the future classic car sector. But it is already clear here that we will see these dinosaurs die out.

The question is rather still: batteries or hydrogen - and what about generation and infrastructure?
According to my contacts with development engineers in various industries, this applies to cars, aircraft (batteries are no option) and large ships - certainly railroads as well. :-)

can you explain whether synthetic fuel will be allowed? the news outlet s awash with "but don't worry people can still use synthetic fuel in their cars" (because that produces non CO2 toxins, meeting the criteria of zero CO2)

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#2936759 30-Jun-2022 22:33

Batman:

can you explain whether synthetic fuel will be allowed? the news outlet s awash with "but don't worry people can still use synthetic fuel in their cars" (because that produces non CO2 toxins, meeting the criteria of zero CO2)

Technically - as a temporary solution for sure. But the question there is rather: at what (currently too high) costs can it be produced and what effects will it have if instead of food we have fuel for our petrol cars in the fields. This becomes very clear at the moment, for example, when one considers the failure of Ukraine as a not insignificant granary for grain. Food for the growing world population (for poor countries rather a question of survival) or comfortable driving? We have had subsidised super fuel with a 10% (E10) synthetic content at the pumps for over 10 years now.

And if you then take into account that about ten times as many plants are needed to produce 1 kg of meat and if this is true, then even I as a meat eater (completely unideologically) have to put up with some questions or at least think about where the journey should lead - everything will no longer be possible in the future, if only for reasons of common sense. It's a bit of a mouse's nest, but these dependencies, which were ignored in the past, will come to light in a serious way for everyone. I wish it were not so, but ...

(Side note: When I look at brainwashed posers with their useless sleds down on the road, petrol is far from expensive enough).

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#2936760 30-Jun-2022 22:47

Anybody been able to track down the full document?

I wrongly assumed the synthetic fuels would be be for existing car's and ice production would stop, but have been doing more reading and that is not the case:

"The move will extend the life of the internal-combustion engine for the foreseeable future – however it is likely to be reserved for use in market-specific entry-level passenger cars, some commercial vehicles, and low-volume performance cars.

The EU recognised the potential for synthetic petrol and diesel to provide “affordable climate-neutral mobility,” opening the door for internal-combustion engine cars to continue to be made and sold in some regions where the full adoption of electric and hydrogen vehicles is not viable due to economic reasons and lagging infrastructure."

https://www.drive.com.au/news/europe-to-ban-petrol-and-diesel-cars-from-2035/

haven't really looked into e fuels before, but a very quick read indicates that they aren't going to be cheap (cira 3 - 4 Euro per liter).

https://theicct.org/e-fuels-wont-save-the-internal-combustion-engine/

Might be a solution for exotic performance cars, but doesn't seem workable for the entry level car's mentioned above.

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#2936770 1-Jul-2022 06:49

so the rich in Europe can still drive their cars with exotic fuel, but they won't be able to go far (no filling "stations")

meanwhile Norway will want China and Japan and every other country to keep buying their petrol.

other fuels i think is a no brainer - planes, ships, power plants, etc all need fuel

question is - if/when NZ will follow ...

i think it's unfair to say people are creating FUD

because by definition this is 100% uncertain.

what is certain is i will have both EV and ICE in my garage

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#2936788 1-Jul-2022 08:28

WyleECoyoteNZ:

Oh, the irony in this.

With the Russia situation, the Russian's are giving Europe\Germany less gas, meaning Germany has had to fire up its coal plants

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/energy/germany-russia-gas-supplies-winter-intl/index.html

Simple fact is Europe shouldn't be burning gas or coal

Generally known online as OpenMedia, now working for Red Hat APAC as a Technology Evangelist and Portfolio Architect. Still playing with MythTV and digital media on the side.

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#2936793 1-Jul-2022 08:32

wellygary:

NZ is shackled to the 2nd hand Japanese car fleet for around 50% of fleet entries, as long as that link remains there is no chance of meeting any 2030 dates,

When EVs are *better* (for the motorist, not just for the environment) than ICEVs, Japan (and everywhere else) will move rapidly to EVs. Even if Japan doesn't, the allure of cheap secondhand ICEVs from Japan will rapidly wear off. I expect that EVs will surpass ICEVs within the next 5 years. That could see good EVs coming secondhand out of Japan by 2030, although perhaps not in numbers big enough to be really significant.

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#2936797 1-Jul-2022 08:38

openmedia:

Simple fact is Europe shouldn't be burning gas or coal

Yes. Such a nuisance when reality impacts on ideology.

I think it is a bit of a shock to some Europeans how dependant they are on other people’s hydrocarbons.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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#2936882 1-Jul-2022 10:00

WyleECoyoteNZ:

Oh, the irony in this.

With the Russia situation, the Russian's are giving Europe\Germany less gas, meaning Germany has had to fire up its coal plants

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/19/energy/germany-russia-gas-supplies-winter-intl/index.html

Firstly note that studies have found an EV charged from a coal power plant is still better for the climate than conventional petrol car's, so the existence of coal fired power plants is not a reason stop moving to EV's

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/?sh=169db6712320

Obviously coal power is far from ideal in 2022 of course.

The invasion of Ukraine has really highlighted the supply risk of fossil fuels to Europe.

Frankly Europe is really lucky that the invasion happened at the tail end of winter, 4 months earlier, and Russia would have had massive power over Europe as cutting gas would have seen people freezing to death in their homes.

Ultimately the immediate situation needs to be dealt with however possible to keep the lights on etc. (even if this means running coal plants)

But I suspect it will be hugely motivating for europe to speed the transition away from fossil fuels, especially ones that they have a single suppler for, like gas from Russia.

Tinkerisk

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#2937154 1-Jul-2022 14:05

Those who have no/hardly any significant heavy industry and import these much-loved products from countries should not talk smart. Do it yourself and you will see how far you can get with only water power. That's like saying: "Nuclear power - no, thanks! In our country, electricity comes from the socket".

Again, with a total population of only 2.5 times my hometown alone, it's pretty easy to do camping with imported equipment and imported e-cars with degrading, habitat-destroying lithium batteries. Nature is destroyed elsewhere - you don't see that. But you too are already destroying your paradise through growing demands and greed. The "Environment Aotearoa" report is no comic book, and its findings could not be further from the picture that the "Pure New Zealand" marketing campaign tried to paint with glossy images of untouched natural landscapes. There it becomes clear that you are struggling with polluted waters, species extinction, the consequences of urbanisation and the spread of the dairy industry, and have already lost significant amounts of forest.

If the world cannot overcome environmental problems, then neither will New Zealand with all its benefits.

Questions?

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