Auckland Congestion Charge - Proposal by a political party

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#3144406 9-Oct-2023 08:00

Senecio:

Scott3:

A congestion charge can very much reduce congestion. Plenty of overseas examples of that. Suspect the example designs I posted above, while not being CBD targeted, would have the effect of reducing congestion across the roading network, including the CBD.

but we’ve just spent 2 pages confirming that we don’t have congestion in the CBD and that’s how a congestion charge is used in every city that has one.

You cant charge people if they’re just going from Manakau to East Tamaki.

It's incredibly straight forward to charge wherever and whatever you like. Install ANPR gantries and have a toll management system. It's not hard.

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#3144407 9-Oct-2023 08:03

GV27:

Handle9:

Because removing the regional fuel tax was dumb.

I'm OK with removing it but only because it's only collected in Auckland. It was functionally just an extra tax on Aucklanders. Really, everyone should be paying one. There's also the not-insignificant amount of any government contribution to an Auckland project that is actually funded from Auckland anyway. And it's very hard to justify when the LGWM program was funded at 60/40 from the Government and they have no fuel tax at all, nor will they. Meanwhile, Auckland has to bear 50% of the CRL costs in addition to the fuel tax.

Apply it to everyone and I'm happy for Auckland to still have it.

So, then, just increase general taxation. Or, even more effective, increase GST.

Whilst I won't complain too much if I get a tax cut if there is a change in Government, I would rather they just spent the taxes I pay on things like transport infrastructure and public transport. Not more and more consultants.

The current government campaigned on Auckland Light Rail in 2017. Nothing happened for three years (maybe they could blame one of their coalition partners). They campaigned on it again in 2020, when they won a parliamentary majority for the first time since MMP started. I still don't see any spades in the ground, but I bet some consultants have got mighty rich from it. 6 years wasted - a change in government will see all that money down the tubes. It is for this reason alone that I will not be giving them my vote again. Shame on them.

Senecio

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#3144428 9-Oct-2023 08:58

Handle9:

Senecio:

but we’ve just spent 2 pages confirming that we don’t have congestion in the CBD and that’s how a congestion charge is used in every city that has one.

You cant charge people if they’re just going from Manakau to East Tamaki.

It's incredibly straight forward to charge wherever and whatever you like. Install ANPR gantries and have a toll management system. It's not hard.

I'm not saying you can't, as in its not possible. I'm saying you can't, as in its a stupid idea.

Scott3

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#3144722 9-Oct-2023 21:31

Senecio:

I'm not saying you can't, as in its not possible. I'm saying you can't, as in its a stupid idea.

If the goal of the scheme is to reduce congestion, including highly contested area's like east Tamika would be logical.

And if the goal is to raise revenue, we would want the scheme to be as expansive as possible, in order to keep the charges low to moderate.

Most of the international examples of congestion charges are focused on the central cit, So Auckland would be one of the first.

perhaps the closest examples could be Gothenburg. Tax is applied to vehicles crossing the red line, such that there is no incentive to drive around the (quite large) central zone.

gzt

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#3145011 10-Oct-2023 18:04

Even without that level of sophistication it may be necessary to cover only a subset of city exits and feeders to reduce city bound congestion. There may or may not be a few escapes. I imagine they'll want to leave Newmarket out of it as that's kind of a destination shop far more than Queen St and city businesses are. Most of the chains have both locations.

Imo the heydays days of non-city workers and residents destination shopping in the city cbd were over many many years ago and it's been downhill from there. No sense in that coming back. The massive economic boost the city CBD will get from CRL will more than compensate.

I see the Goteborg example above has a time gate to spread the load out. Gating areas with a different price is another way to do something similar. For instance $1 for Newmarket entry beyond the adjacent Remuera suburbs is probably doable.

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#3145015 10-Oct-2023 18:17

If bottlenecks like Mt Wellington we're fixed there would be better flow of traffic. Also they never planned the southern motorway expansion to future proof. Takanini to manukau is a bottleneck with 2 onramps and major exit to highway 20

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#3145019 10-Oct-2023 18:23

The Gothenburg map is a great example of why it’s a silly idea for Auckland. How would Gothenburgs tax work if the most congested parts were the 4 corners of the map and central area was dead?

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#3145021 10-Oct-2023 18:28

Senecio: and central area was dead?

I assume your point is somehow about Auckland CBD. Dead seems to be overstating the your case. Traffic does back up in the central area somewhat. The key issue for CBD is the number of vehicles flowing into it and out of it during the rushhours and clogging all the feeders on the way there and in between and far away.

Scott3

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#3220614 20-Apr-2024 11:27

This is becoming a bit more real. Below snip is from GETS, the government procurement system.

ezbee

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#3220619 20-Apr-2024 12:26

It would be interesting to see a 'full' costing of the 'congestion charging' infrastructure, running and maintaining it.
Maybe we can spend that money first on extending public transport, park and rides on outside of city.

Pukekohe electrification is going to help siphon off traffic comming in from south.
If a good sized park and ride is planned there?
Drury would provide a handy offramp to not add to Auckland congestion.
However there may not be any planning about establishing a sizeable park and ride.

It may be supprising to some how far away the congestion tailback starts.

The whole Manukau airport connection is a bit of a mess, which tails back onto motorway system.
Airport precinct now also has a lot of extra workers with a large expanding warehousing, logistics and commercial precinct.

I have heard that park and fly is having capacity issues there ?

cddt

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#3220645 20-Apr-2024 13:34

gzt: Even without that level of sophistication it may be necessary to cover only a subset of city exits and feeders to reduce city bound congestion. There may or may not be a few escapes. I imagine they'll want to leave Newmarket out of it as that's kind of a destination shop far more than Queen St and city businesses are. Most of the chains have both locations.

Newmarket is heavily congested though, especially at rush hour. Has been for decades. It definitely needs congestion charging.

If they can reduce congestion in Newmarket they may even consider converting a general traffic lane to safe (physically separated) cycle lanes!

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Scott3

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#3220767 20-Apr-2024 23:47

ezbee:

It would be interesting to see a 'full' costing of the 'congestion charging' infrastructure, running and maintaining it.
Maybe we can spend that money first on extending public transport, park and rides on outside of city.

Pukekohe electrification is going to help siphon off traffic comming in from south.
If a good sized park and ride is planned there?
Drury would provide a handy offramp to not add to Auckland congestion.
However there may not be any planning about establishing a sizeable park and ride.

It may be supprising to some how far away the congestion tailback starts.

The whole Manukau airport connection is a bit of a mess, which tails back onto motorway system.
Airport precinct now also has a lot of extra workers with a large expanding warehousing, logistics and commercial precinct.

I have heard that park and fly is having capacity issues there ?

Absolutely the cost estimates of setting up the scheme (capex & opex) will be very interesting. Will be highly dependent on what configuration is attempted. i.e. a gps tracker in every car in Auckland vs a handful of gates with number plate recognition.

The only thing that really matters is that the overhead of operating the scheme (less costs of operating the regional fuel tax) are less then the benefits delivered in congestion reduction. If this is met it is a clear economic win. If not we would be better to stick with the fuel tax.

Suggestions that the overhead could instead be spend elsewhere misses the point that this scheme is to, by design, bring in enough money to replace the Auckland fuel tax (after the overheads have been covered). It is going to generate substantial net revenue for the authority that operates it (which in itself is an interesting question, as central government owns the state highways (motorways generally), where the council owns the local roads).

All the stuff you mention could be funded regardless if there was the political will. I think it is a bit of an oddity that there is no Drury station.

Should note that is a general rule, Park and Ride doesn't deliver very good bang for buck in terms of reducing congestion (especially if you make it free):

It is expensive to build
A decent proportion of the parks get used by people who would have made it to the station some other way if there was no park and ride (i.e. walked, cycled, caught a feeder bus, or got dropped off)
It encourages a high level of car ownership.

Can't comment on park and fly (do you mean Park 'N Fly, the private operator?) - As a general note Auckland Airport is undergoing a massive upgrade project at the moment.

Scott3

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#3220768 20-Apr-2024 23:58

cddt:

gzt: Even without that level of sophistication it may be necessary to cover only a subset of city exits and feeders to reduce city bound congestion. There may or may not be a few escapes. I imagine they'll want to leave Newmarket out of it as that's kind of a destination shop far more than Queen St and city businesses are. Most of the chains have both locations.

Newmarket is heavily congested though, especially at rush hour. Has been for decades. It definitely needs congestion charging.

If they can reduce congestion in Newmarket they may even consider converting a general traffic lane to safe (physically separated) cycle lanes!

The way I see it a CBD focused scheme isn't going to meet the objectives. It needs to be wide reaching.

Going to make is a global innovate (or guinea pig if you see it that way) in this space.

Also going to be quite a different from the design of other congestion charge schemes. Typically Congestion management is the primary goal, and revenue is a welcome side effect.

For us both Revenue and Congestion management are going to be primary goals.

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#3221007 21-Apr-2024 13:03

I'm pretty sure all public transport users have higher charges during peak hours so it makes sense to have peak congestion charges for road users. I can't believe its taken this long..

Scott3

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#3270821 12-Aug-2024 12:12

This seems to be all go:

https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/08/12/govt-to-introduce-congestion-charge-bill/

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