RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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#3183596 18-Jan-2024 16:48

Batman: People won't know that when I take my GPS speedometer (not the phone app) and check my speed, most cars are about 5-10% underreading. One of my cars is 14% lower on the speedo.

Which means people will be paying more kms than they actually drive! Time to upsize Nissan leaf tyres by 30%!/jk (iirc it's 10% off)

Nope, Speedometers deliberately read High , -There is a UN agreement on such things ( cue spooky music)

But the car actually knows how fast and how far it is actually going... your Odometer is correct.....

Edit: High not Low- but you knew what I meant ..

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#3183598 18-Jan-2024 16:52

wellygary:

Batman: People won't know that when I take my GPS speedometer (not the phone app) and check my speed, most cars are about 5-10% underreading. One of my cars is 14% lower on the speedo.

Which means people will be paying more kms than they actually drive! Time to upsize Nissan leaf tyres by 30%!/jk (iirc it's 10% off)

Nope, Speedometers deliberately read low, -There is a UN agreement on such things ( cue spooky music)

But the car actually knows how fast and how far it is actually going... your Odometer is correct.....

Exactly right. In NZ the speedometer is not allowed to read under the actual speed, but it is allowed to read up to 10% over. To play it safe most manufacturers deliberately set it high. Tyre size and inflation affect the true reading, but in my car the speed reported over the CANBUS is very close to the actual speed, and the odometer is pretty accurate as well, even though the speedometer on the dash is around 8% higher than actual.

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#3183607 18-Jan-2024 17:24

Batman: People won't know that when I take my GPS speedometer (not the phone app) and check my speed, most cars are about 5-10% underreading. One of my cars is 14% lower on the speedo. Which means people will be paying more kms than they actually drive! Time to upsize Nissan leaf tyres by 30%!/jk (iirc it's 10% off)

I've seen my car also does that. Using Waze, I consistently see the car showing a higher speed than the vehicle says. It's too consistent to be GPS drift. When Waze says 100 km/h the speedo shows 103 km/h.

A theory is that cars underreport the speed to allow for changes in wheel radius due to wear and tear, and to keep people slightly below the speed limit.

As tires wear down, there will be even more revolutions per travelled kilometre, and the difference will be worse. Is this likely to be something the dealer can fix?

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#3183613 18-Jan-2024 17:54

Shadowfoot:
Batman: People won't know that when I take my GPS speedometer (not the phone app) and check my speed, most cars are about 5-10% underreading. One of my cars is 14% lower on the speedo. Which means people will be paying more kms than they actually drive! Time to upsize Nissan leaf tyres by 30%!/jk (iirc it's 10% off)

I've seen my car also does that. Using Waze, I consistently see the car showing a higher speed than the vehicle says. It's too consistent to be GPS drift. When Waze says 100 km/h the speedo shows 103 km/h.

A theory is that cars underreport the speed to allow for changes in wheel radius due to wear and tear, and to keep people slightly below the speed limit.

As tires wear down, there will be even more revolutions per travelled kilometre, and the difference will be worse. Is this likely to be something the dealer can fix?

Surely the difference would be so minor not bother? I mean a slightly flat new tyre might have the same circumference as pumped up old tyre?

Though I do have an unusual profile on one car as it has slightly larger wheels so I had get slightly different tyres to keep the diameter as close as possible to stock.

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#3183616 18-Jan-2024 18:02

empacher48: This was always going to happen and at the same rate as light diesels.

I used to drive a Peugeot 407 2.0 diesel. The year up to the end of June 2023 (when I sold it) I had done 22,000km. Of that there was $1,690 RUC and $2,745 of diesel.

Since the 1st July 2023 I’ve been driving a Model 3, done 12,000km and spent about $350 of electricity. The RUC for that distance would be about $920. So assume I do 24,000km a year it would be $700 electricity and $1840 RUC.

Not including maintenance or any other expenses. The pug cost $4,435 and the model 3 should cost $2,540. So still cheaper to run the EV over a diesel.

You do have to factor in depreciation which is probably going to be most peoples largest cost. eg keeping an older car but paying more in fuel, or buying an EV, and saving on fuel costs, but having larger deprecation cost. Although has a past owner of a PUG, you don't really want to keep it much longer than it's warranty.

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#3183618 18-Jan-2024 18:08

mattwnz:
You do have to factor in depreciation which is probably going to be most peoples largest cost. eg keeping an older car but paying more in fuel, or buying an EV, and saving on fuel costs, but having larger deprecation cost. Although has a past owner of a PUG, you don't really want to keep it much longer than it's warranty.

I don’t care about depreciation, pay for the car in cash and drive them until their last drive is to a wrecker. It’s where the Pug ended up after 18 years of ownership. It’s where the Model 3 will end up when it’s done too.

Depreciation is only for people who think cars are an asset, when they’re actually a massive liability.

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#3183647 18-Jan-2024 19:09

FYI: expert advice here - please do not be confused with your Combination Meter (aka Instrument Cluster or Speedometer) speed reading and its Odometer (aka ODO, Mileage) readings. Separate algorithms, separated CAN bus streams in modern speedometers. First is not true and discrepancy is not linear, where is the second is correct on the stock tyres. Saved thousands of people from over speeding tickets, but they still complain .... In respect to the topic - rely on your ODO for RUC, do not imagine things...
P.S. I can currently run Mazda, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai speedometers on the bench at a pre-recorded speed. I can calibrate needles in Toyota clusters as per manufacturer specs.

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#3183658 18-Jan-2024 20:00

The speedo in one of my cars is right on the money, matches the GPS and the speed signs to within 1 km/hr. It dosen't seem to matter whether I'm driving on new or worn tyres, the difference is imperceptible.

Based on my experience it would take an appreciable change in diameter to effect a worthwhile difference.

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#3183659 18-Jan-2024 20:08

Technofreak: The speedo in one of my cars is right on the money, matches the GPS and the speed signs to within 1 km/hr. It dosen't seem to matter whether I'm driving on new or worn tyres, the difference is imperceptible.

Based on my experience it would take an appreciable change in diameter to effect a worthwhile difference.

The 19 inch tyres on our Polestar2 have a 680mm diameter which equates to a 2.14m rolling circumference. 5mm of tread wear would result in a 2.10m circumference so a 1.5% difference. On an off road capable vehicle with tyres for that purpose I would imagine that a 30mm diameter difference would be possible so close to a 5% circumference (and speedo) difference.

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#3183664 18-Jan-2024 20:18

lchiu7:

Somebody in this thread mentioned to take into account the issues with PHEV owners being double charged is for those owners to submit their petro receipts for credits. A worthy idea, but of course it has its issues. Firstly most fuel receipts don't have a plate number on them so it's not going to be easy to validate the receipts are for PHEV owners. Secondly asking NZTA so build any system quickly to do this is going to be fraught with errors and over runs. The Govt is not well know for Agile and fast application delivery.

Being agile is a problem with any changes like this. PHEVs in the future could be made to have larger batteries / and or increase efficiency and range, so they may almost never need to use the petrol engine .So those owners may then benefit from cheaper RUCs, and almost never pay tax when buying petrol, simply because they purchased a new car. So they are then not really payign their fair share to use the roads IMO. Already some PHEVs will have a longer range than some older EVs with old worn batteries, such as old Nisan Leafs. But the old Leafs will be paying a higher RUC fee than those new PHEVS, despite having a shorter range than a new PHEV. But it won't be that long before all cars will be paying RUCs, and I can't see them removing all the current tax on petrol.

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#3183669 18-Jan-2024 20:41

mattwnz:
lchiu7:

Somebody in this thread mentioned to take into account the issues with PHEV owners being double charged is for those owners to submit their petro receipts for credits. A worthy idea, but of course it has its issues. Firstly most fuel receipts don't have a plate number on them so it's not going to be easy to validate the receipts are for PHEV owners. Secondly asking NZTA so build any system quickly to do this is going to be fraught with errors and over runs. The Govt is not well know for Agile and fast application delivery.

Being agile is a problem with any changes like this. PHEVs in the future could be made to have larger batteries / and or increase efficiency and range, so they may almost never need to use the petrol engine .So those owners may then benefit from cheaper RUCs, and almost never pay tax when buying petrol, simply because they purchased a new car. So they are then not really payign their fair share to use the roads IMO. Already some PHEVs will have a longer range than some older EVs with old worn batteries, such as old Nisan Leafs. But the old Leafs will be paying a higher RUC fee than those new PHEVS, despite having a shorter range than a new PHEV. But it won't be that long before all cars will be paying RUCs, and I can't see them removing all the current tax on petrol.

If I attach a diesel motor to my leaf and reclassify as PHEV...

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#3183670 18-Jan-2024 20:42

Shadowfoot:

Batman: People won't know that when I take my GPS speedometer (not the phone app) and check my speed, most cars are about 5-10% underreading. One of my cars is 14% lower on the speedo. Which means people will be paying more kms than they actually drive! Time to upsize Nissan leaf tyres by 30%!/jk (iirc it's 10% off)

I've seen my car also does that. Using Waze, I consistently see the car showing a higher speed than the vehicle says. It's too consistent to be GPS drift. When Waze says 100 km/h the speedo shows 103 km/h.

A theory is that cars underreport the speed to allow for changes in wheel radius due to wear and tear, and to keep people slightly below the speed limit.

As tires wear down, there will be even more revolutions per travelled kilometre, and the difference will be worse. Is this likely to be something the dealer can fix?

I think the issue is speeding tickets. You cannot book drivers for 1 kph over, a few variables, IIRC up to 5 kph over the Police will look the other way. So the speedo helps that

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#3183674 18-Jan-2024 20:48

mattwnz:

Being agile is a problem with any changes like this. PHEVs in the future could be made to have larger batteries / and or increase efficiency and range, so they may almost never need to use the petrol engine .So those owners may then benefit from cheaper RUCs, and almost never pay tax when buying petrol, simply because they purchased a new car. So they are then not really payign their fair share to use the roads IMO. Already some PHEVs will have a longer range than some older EVs with old worn batteries, such as old Nisan Leafs. But the old Leafs will be paying a higher RUC fee than those new PHEVS, despite having a shorter range than a new PHEV. But it won't be that long before all cars will be paying RUCs, and I can't see them removing all the current tax on petrol.

Agree fully. The issue is there can be a wide swathe of car variables, you can't legislate for that. While I disagree with the current new law, what I do agree with is you ned to keep it simple and draw a line. If that caused a drop-off in electric usage of hybrids, and an increase in non plug in hybrids thats another issue

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#3183675 18-Jan-2024 20:57

FYI: older cars, e.g. Lexus IS-250/350/ISF 2006-2010 (as an example) use pulse signal for Speed/ODO reading. There are of the shelf non expensive tools you can put behind the cluster and adjust to certain precision your speed readings/ODO readings when, for example you put different size wheels. I bought 3 samples from 3 wendors, returned one as not functional. Still have two of those. No use for me anymore.

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#3183724 18-Jan-2024 21:15

RUKI: FYI: older cars, e.g. Lexus IS-250/350/ISF 2006-2010 (as an example) use pulse signal for Speed/ODO reading. There are of the shelf non expensive tools you can put behind the cluster and adjust to certain precision your speed readings/ODO readings when, for example you put different size wheels. I bought 3 samples from 3 wendors, returned one as not functional. Still have two of those. No use for me anymore.

From what I'm seeing on this forum from assumedly knowledgeable members in regards to odometer functionality the likelihood of your common or garden fraudster being able to successfully alter information in order to avoid RUCs with modern vehicles' levels of technology is pretty unlikely.

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