rail between Auckland, Bay of Plenty and the Waikato

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#1848539 18-Aug-2017 13:45

frankv:

Rikkitic:

This kind of thing seems to work well enough in Europe.

Right. But you're not in Europe now, Dr @Rikkitic! In Europe they already have intra-city public transport that works. And Europe has a high enough population density (lots of 4-storey apartment blocks) to support it.

This, in big glowing letters,

The Auckland and Waikato regions together are about the same land area as Switzerland, but Switzerland's population is north of 8 million, while Ak+Waikato is just over 2 million.

regional rail in low population areas cane get very expensive very quickly, as this story from Australia shows

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-28/rural-passenger-train-travel-westlander-inlander-subsidies/7667352

It would be cheaper to fly each passenger between Cairns and Brisbane, rather than run the rail, and that's the best performing route...

kryptonjohn

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#1848550 18-Aug-2017 14:01

HowickDota:

Everyone seems to be commenting on the efficacy of what is the third stage in the proposal, obviously the most expensive step, no one expects a deep dive straight into this stage. The first stage is what I'm interested in as it would be a trial run to test the waters and see if this service is viable.

Personally what I'm interested as someone who commuted from Buckland, Pukekohe via train to Britomart everyday is extending the southern line to Tuakau and Pokeno. Those queues at Drury could be greatly reduced by taking commuters off the road from these areas, which are growing very quickly.

That makes a lot more sense, but I foresee some pain in using the existing tracks due to network congestion with commuter rail and freight services, track and signalling faults, incidents etc.

The scheduled time is still 20 min slower than the bus. Not sure if the bus or the train would be more reliable WRT breakdowns, faults etc. The train should be a lot more comfortable through.

Rikkitic

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#1848552 18-Aug-2017 14:02

wellygary:

This, in big glowing letters,

The Auckland and Waikato regions together are about the same land area as Switzerland, but Switzerland's population is north of 8 million, while Ak+Waikato is just over 2 million.

regional rail in low population areas cane get very expensive very quickly, as this story from Australia shows

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-28/rural-passenger-train-travel-westlander-inlander-subsidies/7667352

It would be cheaper to fly each passenger between Cairns and Brisbane, rather than run the rail, and that's the best performing route...

That is a very interesting link and it does give food for thought but I feel it still doesn't tell the whole story. As frankv points out, there are drawbacks to taking the plane, especially here in little ole New Zealand, and no stops along the way. People who only see things in dollar terms overlook a lot of other values, as the article also suggests. It is not only about cost. Subsidising rail is also subsidising mobility for the elderly and public transport for a whole range of purposes. Rail in Europe is also heavily subsidised. Here car transport is subsidised through taxes for highway construction. People may think they are paying for that with fuel levies and road user charges, but it is still subsidised. From that article I think Queenslanders certainly are not getting value for money and something probably needs to be done to reduce costs, but that does not mean the service should be eliminated altogether.

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vexxxboy

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#1848553 18-Aug-2017 14:03

they have had a rail service between Rotorua and Hamilton/ Auckland and it lost so much money it was soon stopped. It was just to expensive and not even the tourist's used it and now when you can get a return bus to Hamilton for under $10 it would still be to expensive.

Common sense is not as common as you think.

kryptonjohn

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#1848554 18-Aug-2017 14:08

Rikkitic makes some good points there as the effects of subsidisation are not at all transparent.

However, I'm still far from convinced that the costs are worth it largely due to the small population that can use it.

So... the existing infrastructure should be able to be leveraged further. The cost/benefit should be better for simply pushing out the service on existing infrastructure to Pukekohe, Pokeno, Huntly and the Tron.

I just can't see how anything further than that would work - there'll never be enough people in Tauranga/Te Puke/Rotorua etc to use it - the economics of flight will win every time.

[edit: typos]

wellygary

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#1848577 18-Aug-2017 14:28

HowickDota:

Everyone seems to be commenting on the efficacy of what is the third stage in the proposal, obviously the most expensive step, no one expects a deep dive straight into this stage. The first stage is what I'm interested in as it would be a trial run to test the waters and see if this service is viable.

Yeah, but when you look at the details, you find what they are offering is not a service to and from Auckland ( downtown) it is actually services to and from Otahuhu with a required change onto the existing Auckland Electric Units.. ( Diesel Trains can no longer enter Britomart)

kryptonjohn

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#1848581 18-Aug-2017 14:32

They should just run it to the old original platforms aka The Strand station and run the city inner loop buses through there.

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frankv

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#1848584 18-Aug-2017 14:58

Rikkitic:

The point I am making is that ideas like this at least warrant looking at. Maybe the economics don't stack up for New Zealand. Or maybe it could be done with a different approach. I don't know, but why be so quick to dismiss it?

Sorry, wasn't meaning to be dismissive. It's worth looking into, but when you do look, you shouldn't press on regardless if you don't like what you find. A fast rail link between Auckland and Hamilton *by itself* would be a waste of money (IMHO). To make it work, it's not just a matter of putting some trains on the tracks... you need the infrastructure at both ends to bring people to the railway station and take them away again. And that infrastructure is lacking in most NZ cities. I haven't looked into the Greens' proposal, but I haven't seen any reporting about also needing to build local infrastructure.

Of course things like population density and the nature of the economy are very different, but it doesn't make sense to compare things on a country to country basis anyway.

Uh, it was you that brought up the comparison to Europe as an example of why it should work here. I was showing why that comparison wasn't valid.

How does Switzerland, which has a high wage economy, manage to pay for all those very expensive tunnels and other big infrastructure projects? We have a low wage economy, so at least it shouldn't cost us as much to run a train service as it would there. If you are going to start comparing these kinds of things, you have to compare the right things.

Switzerland built much of its railways back in the late 1800s, when it was a low-wage economy. However, they do still build tunnels, etc nowadays, but I think they use more automation now. :) I'm sure that we could run a train service cheaper than Switzerland, but we wouldn't have as many customers, so each customer would have to pay (a lot) more. Even if it was subsidised to make it cheap enough, it still wouldn't be used if it wasn't also as convenient as a car.

Thanks for the elevation of my title, by the way. Is that a doctor of philosophy, or sociology, or even medicine?

You're welcome. That's a doctor of soap opera...

nickb800

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#1848587 18-Aug-2017 15:05

I agree that it is probably marginal with current economics, however I don't see the point of it being to serve existing population in Huntly etc

I think the point of the proposal is to change the pattern of settlement in Waikato (and Bay of Plenty). This as much to rejuvenate small towns as it is to support growth in Auckland

kryptonjohn

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#1848590 18-Aug-2017 15:08

Rejuvenate? Have you seen the size of Pokeno these days?

Rikkitic

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#1848602 18-Aug-2017 15:21

frankv:

You're welcome. That's a doctor of soap opera...

Ok, now I get it. Unfortunately I stopped watching Shortland Street many years ago. Not because I had anything against it. My attention just wandered at one point and I never picked it up again.

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nakedmolerat

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#1848607 18-Aug-2017 15:27

sbiddle:
I think a train service does make sense - but to think there is enough demand to need 15 min services to Hamilton is almost laughable.

i disagree. Regular commute between Hamilton and Auckland means lots of people can live in Hamilton and work in Auckland.

Thus would be similar to Kapiti and Wellington CBD

nickb800

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#1848608 18-Aug-2017 15:31

kryptonjohn:

Rejuvenate? Have you seen the size of Pokeno these days?

Sure Pokeno is growing, but it's just a big Pokeno. It could be a Pukekohe, and there could be a whole lot of Pukekohe's along the rail/SH1 corridor providing more affordable communities for those that work in Auckland

Rikkitic

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#1848617 18-Aug-2017 15:49

I feel a need to add something to explain my standpoint a little better. Coming from Europe, I really like trains. I think trains are wonderful. I think they are one of those things that a civilised society should support. I really miss them here. There used to be a passenger service that ran between Wellington and Hastings. I'm not sure if it went further. I got off at Hastings. I really liked that train. It was comfortable, convenient, easy. It ran from central Wellington to central Hastings. It was much, much better than the bus. The view was much better. It was much more enjoyable. I used it whenever I needed to travel between Wellington and Hastings. Then it ended.

The alternatives are the bus, which I hate, and the car, which is a pain, especially now that the main route is closed. The train was so much better. After the passenger service stopped, but when the line to Gisborne was still open to freight, I often had reason to travel north to Morere. This meant battling the logging trucks on a narrow, winding mountain road totally unsuitable for the purpose. The trucks were either frustrating, when you were stuck behind one, or terrifying, when one was behind you. I often longed for that train and thought how nice it would have been to be able to take it to Morere, or maybe Nuhaka, where it might yet be useful for the rocket industry. I don't really understand the Kiwi car fixation. It is certainly handy to have one, but for many things there are much better alternatives.

So the proposed Waikato train service doesn't make economic sense. Lots of things don't, but sometimes the real costs of things are hidden. I still have hope that the future may bring change.

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kryptonjohn

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#1848619 18-Aug-2017 15:52

Yeah there's a lot more to Pukekohe than being an Auckland dormitory like Pokeno has become as it has all the rural engineering, retail and service infrastructure for the wider region. So Pukekohe's pretty vibrant on it's own two feet without Auckland rejuvenating it. Even Tuakau has nice little village thing going.

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