Car prices

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#1992193 9-Apr-2018 18:06

Batman:

Fred99:

networkn:

Take one for a drive, then you'll know.

I have.

IMO most cars are boring / uninteresting.

If you want something "interesting", be it an AMG MB, M series BMW, Nissan GTR, RS Audi, etc, then eventually it's going to cost dearly to own it - be that due to massive depreciation and/or inevitable maintenance issues. There's no free lunch (possible exception Tesla S P*D models).

Those cars are of course utterly futile on NZ roads, but that doesn't hinder boys with their toys.

They must put some kind of pheromones in the new car scent, because all the flaws of the car including for example crazy harsh ride quality and jet engine loud road noise, seems to be masked by the scent, which becomes extremely painful once the scent wears off.

There's IMO a kind of sense of contact with your surroundings, the road surface, tyre noise, engine noise etc that can add to driving pleasure. Not just cars, I had many years ago a Moto Guzzi 850 Lemans, which had a well-balanced 90 deg vee twin which still provided a little sideways vibration at idle, a lot of exhaust noise in glorious stereo, a pleasing induction noise from dellorto pumpers, riding it was a very pleasant experience. Similarly with V8 cars, and I also love the howl of an air-cooled Porsche 911 echoing back through an open sun roof. I had a friend once with a Lamborghini Miura - that with a v12 with a very rudimentary air-cleaner set atop ram tubes feeding 6 twin webbers (or dellortos?) this arrangement sitting inches behind your head separated by a perspex screen from the cabin - that was glorious at 100mph in 3rd gear, but as loud as hell and rather uncomfortable.

A friend has a new 911 991S, and it's got a "loud button" on the console. If you want it to be noisy, press the button and some flaps adjust in the exhaust system, something happens with the engine mapping to make it crackle on the overrun and bark loudly on acceleration. It sounds great - but the concept behind it is so fake I just can't be impressed. It's also (despite not being a "fast" Porsche compared to more exotic variants), still insane and unusable on NZ roads. Loud button off and driven sedately around town, it's about as exciting as a Corolla, but bumpier.

IMO we passed "peak car" sometime back in about the 1980s.

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#1992205 9-Apr-2018 18:23

1eStar: There's a few alarmists on this thread. I've driven VW 7 speed DSG in a Tiguan. I'm very impressed with the shifting, the smoothness etc. In sport mode it does some funky downshifts! It tows the boat nicely due to it's ultra low 1st gear. If you are aware that it's actually an automated manual it helps not stress the clutch when you're recovering the boat trailer, or backing up a slope.

Automated manual has clutches, robotically controlled.

When the clutch is engaged by the computer it stresses the clutch. That happens below a certain speed below which 1st gear cannot be engaged fully.

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#1992209 9-Apr-2018 18:29

kryptonjohn:

I was talking in the context of the thread - late model Tourareg/Cayenne/X5/A6/5-6-7 series etc. Have driven or been driven in all - minimal road noise and superb ride. Own a Prado and it is massively worse for both ride (boat like) and road noise.

Mid sized Euros are generally around 400kgs heavier than the mid sized Japs I own, most of that must be the metal thickness and sound insulation.

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#1992211 9-Apr-2018 18:34

Batman:

1eStar: There's a few alarmists on this thread. I've driven VW 7 speed DSG in a Tiguan. I'm very impressed with the shifting, the smoothness etc. In sport mode it does some funky downshifts! It tows the boat nicely due to it's ultra low 1st gear. If you are aware that it's actually an automated manual it helps not stress the clutch when you're recovering the boat trailer, or backing up a slope.

Automated manual has clutches, robotically controlled.

When the clutch is engaged by the computer it stresses the clutch. That happens below a certain speed below which 1st gear cannot be engaged fully.

Where are you getting this from? What do you mean by "cannot be engaged fully"? Humans can bunny hop a manual clutch until it is destroyed - doesn't make it a design fault.

Being stressed is the clutch's job - it has to deal with the mismatched speeds. Manual clutches are stressed too but I bet the computer does a better job of protecting it than a human.

I can put my non DSG, automatic VW into manual mode and select too high a gear... but it won't let me drive off like that. The computer says no!

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#1992298 9-Apr-2018 19:40

MikeAqua:
Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic: To date the Land Rover has been very reliable.

Most expensive maintenance item was replacement of suspension bushings, which is not a reliability issue.

It could be a reliability issue depending on the distance the vehicle has travelled and over what terrain

Of course it's a reliability issue - it'll cause a WOF fail as well as causing annoying knocks/rattles and alignment/handling issues.

Very common issue on some of the "sportier" Audis etc.

Apologies in advance if I have stuffed up the quote attribution ...

Suspension bushes are a wear and tear item. You can expect to replace them as part of normal maintenance.

It's no more a reliability issue any than e.g. changing brake pads or rotors. Especially if the vehicle works hard.

Agreed. They are effectively sacrificial parts.

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#1992329 9-Apr-2018 20:04

kryptonjohn:

Batman:

1eStar: There's a few alarmists on this thread. I've driven VW 7 speed DSG in a Tiguan. I'm very impressed with the shifting, the smoothness etc. In sport mode it does some funky downshifts! It tows the boat nicely due to it's ultra low 1st gear. If you are aware that it's actually an automated manual it helps not stress the clutch when you're recovering the boat trailer, or backing up a slope.

Automated manual has clutches, robotically controlled.

When the clutch is engaged by the computer it stresses the clutch. That happens below a certain speed below which 1st gear cannot be engaged fully.

Where are you getting this from? What do you mean by "cannot be engaged fully"? Humans can bunny hop a manual clutch until it is destroyed - doesn't make it a design fault.

Being stressed is the clutch's job - it has to deal with the mismatched speeds. Manual clutches are stressed too but I bet the computer does a better job of protecting it than a human.

I can put my non DSG, automatic VW into manual mode and select too high a gear... but it won't let me drive off like that. The computer says no!

If you drive at 1 km/hr, you cannot engage first gear, because that will stall your engine. Take it out and drive it at 1k/hr. Does you car stall? So how does your DSG car move at 1 km/hr without it stalling? It engages the clutch.

That clutch will disengage at some point, probably when the car is travelling fast enough for the engine to spin at 1500rpm in 1st gear. Whatever that speed is.

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#1992331 9-Apr-2018 20:06

creeping in a DSG is very bad for it, the best boxes for creeping are CVT or torque converter boxes

Here is a crazy notion, lets give peace a chance.

Fred99

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#1992351 9-Apr-2018 20:39

Geektastic:
MikeAqua:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic: To date the Land Rover has been very reliable.

Most expensive maintenance item was replacement of suspension bushings, which is not a reliability issue.

It could be a reliability issue depending on the distance the vehicle has travelled and over what terrain

Of course it's a reliability issue - it'll cause a WOF fail as well as causing annoying knocks/rattles and alignment/handling issues.

Very common issue on some of the "sportier" Audis etc.

Apologies in advance if I have stuffed up the quote attribution ...

Suspension bushes are a wear and tear item. You can expect to replace them as part of normal maintenance.

It's no more a reliability issue any than e.g. changing brake pads or rotors. Especially if the vehicle works hard.

Agreed. They are effectively sacrificial parts.

Using that logic, the whole damned car is a sacrificial part, until it's rendered back into a pile of metal oxide dust with the recyclable plastics turned into flower pots.

Suspension joints/bushes shouldn't be routinely crapping out under normal use in a normal car until you're getting near terminal expectation for serviceable life of the car, which in the case of Landrover products, often isn't very long at all.

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#1992365 9-Apr-2018 20:52

networkn:

Despite seeing some amazing cars, among them the Renault Koleos which is an absolutely amazing car for the money, we settled on an 2016 Audi A4, which is just a masterpiece. My wife LOVES it, and she doesn't really like cars.

The Koleos is just a Nissan X-trail chassis, engine, drive train with a French body and insides!

Aredwood

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#1992419 9-Apr-2018 22:56

MikeB4:
Fred99:

I'd be interested in a hands-up on who's ever needed to replace suspension bushes on their under 10 years old / 200,000km cars.

I'll start with never, although I did need to replace two bushes on a Nissan I owned when it hit about 220,000km and 20 years old.

It does depend how the vehicle is being used. If it's regularly used on unsealed corrugated roads, being used off road or being submerged then the wear on the bushes would be greater than those on a vehicle that is being used on sealed roads. If the later and the bushes are being replaced under 100,000 kms then it can well be said to be a reliability issue. If the former then it could be see as wear and tear.

If the failed suspension bush was a sway bar bush, or something else related to the sway bar. Then driving off road definitely puts a lot more stress on those parts. As the sway bar's job is to try and keep the suspension travel the same on both sides of an axle. Now imagine doing serious offloading, where 1 wheel is pushed almost as far as it can go into the wheel well, and there is virtually no weight on the other wheel on that axle.

It is one of those things that is a compromise. Do you want good tarmac handling, or good off road ability? Assuming that the sway bar links are weaker than the bar itself, worst case scenario is a link snapping. The sway bar won't work anymore, but you can still drive just fine. With extra sway of course.

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#1992735 10-Apr-2018 13:51

MikeB4:

creeping in a DSG is very bad for it, the best boxes for creeping are CVT or torque converter boxes

That's no different to a straight manual gearbox and in some cases, the DSG's with wet clutch packs are probably more resilient.

If you ride a clutch, whether it is in a proper manual or a DSG, it will heat up and when hot enough, wear. The answer is to treat it like a manual and don't creep. Give yourself a bit of room as you would in a manual and then move forward.

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#1992871 10-Apr-2018 17:19

Fred99:

Geektastic:
MikeAqua:

Fred99:

MikeB4:

Geektastic: To date the Land Rover has been very reliable.

Most expensive maintenance item was replacement of suspension bushings, which is not a reliability issue.

It could be a reliability issue depending on the distance the vehicle has travelled and over what terrain

Of course it's a reliability issue - it'll cause a WOF fail as well as causing annoying knocks/rattles and alignment/handling issues.

Very common issue on some of the "sportier" Audis etc.

Apologies in advance if I have stuffed up the quote attribution ...

Suspension bushes are a wear and tear item. You can expect to replace them as part of normal maintenance.

It's no more a reliability issue any than e.g. changing brake pads or rotors. Especially if the vehicle works hard.

Agreed. They are effectively sacrificial parts.

Using that logic, the whole damned car is a sacrificial part, until it's rendered back into a pile of metal oxide dust with the recyclable plastics turned into flower pots.

Suspension joints/bushes shouldn't be routinely crapping out under normal use in a normal car until you're getting near terminal expectation for serviceable life of the car, which in the case of Landrover products, often isn't very long at all.

Not so. In a 2.3 tonne 4x4 the suspension requires massive levels of articulation compared to a road car. The bushes must accommodate that, as well as support the weight of the car and the additional loads cornering, braking and so on. The parts are only made of rubber - to expect them to last 500,000km without wear is equivalent to expecting your tyres to do the same, or your brake pads, or your oil filters.

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#1992872 10-Apr-2018 17:20

Wife quite likes the Kodiaq, on paper at least.

MikeAqua

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#1994087 11-Apr-2018 09:21

Fred99:

I'd be interested in a hands-up on who's ever needed to replace suspension bushes on their under 10 years old / 200,000km cars.

I'll start with never, although I did need to replace two bushes on a Nissan I owned when it hit about 220,000km and 20 years old.

I had a 1991 Nissan Navara 2WD ute (2.5 diesel). Fantastic vehicle in its day, but the suspension bushes and thrust bearings had to be replaced twice - at about 200,000km and 400,00km. I used the ute for my casual flat/house/firewood/coal moving business, and it did quite a few kms on rough roads and farm tracks.

Mike

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#1994094 11-Apr-2018 09:35

Fred99:

Using that logic, the whole damned car is a sacrificial part, until it's rendered back into a pile of metal oxide dust with the recyclable plastics turned into flower pots.

Suspension joints/bushes shouldn't be routinely crapping out under normal use in a normal car until you're getting near terminal expectation for serviceable life of the car, which in the case of Landrover products, often isn't very long at all.

Friction and wear are inevitable. It's just a matter of what wears.

The suspension bushes isolate metal from metal at an articulated connection. Being a little bit soft and flexible it inevitably wears. Better that the bushes wear than the parts they isolate from each other.

Like tyres, brake pads and bearings you expect them to wear and need replacement, especially in a larger off-road, commercial vehicle or performance vehicles in which the suspension has a hard life.

In family sedan being drive sedately around town, wear of bushes should be unusual. Every now and then I'm in a taxi which has obvious bushes wear and wonder how it got its last COF.

Mike

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