The Decline of Diesel.....Ongoing.

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › The Decline of Diesel.....Ongoing.

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#2044530 27-Jun-2018 07:59

Geektastic:

We just bought a Volvo XC 70 D5.

I flew up to Auckland to get it. I drove back to home, about 800km, and still had enough left for another 360km.

No, I won't be buying a battery car any time soon.

When they get to 1000km range and 3 minute charging, I will look again.

I can understand that thinking if you do a daily 1000km commute.

But having to stop for 30 minutes every 3-4 hours is less than you're supposed to do for road safety....and it would only be 5 times a year on the handful of longer trips.

Hardly an excuse to screw up your kids (and everyone else') future by being SO UNWILLING to reduce your CO2 emissions.

A lot of people just don't understand how serious this is already.

It's understandable......the damage being done now will be felt most in 20 years. That's just too abstract for most people. Some people even still smoke cigarettes....than they are well known to lead to painful, scary rotting death.

Probably the best example is the tsunami in Japan in 2011. Despite being taught all their lives to head for the hills after a big quake....and then txt messages....and sirens.....a lot of people died anyway.

The people in these cars just didn't understand the danger was minutes way.....and for climate change? Years or decades....but just as certain. But it won't be you. It will be your kids and theirs.

https://youtu.be/noq8FYvRqgs

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I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

Geektastic

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#2044539 27-Jun-2018 08:23

MikeB4: @Geektastic 1,100 k in a vehicle with a 70 litre tank that averages makers claim 8-9 l/100km, at best probably closer to 11l/100km?

Still way more practical than any electric vehicle, even a Tesla which costs at least twice as much and then some to buy. Filling with diesel takes 5 minutes every 1000 km. Tesla about 90 minutes (on a fast charger if you can find one) every 500 km or so.

Electric vehicles are fine for people who mostly drive short urban trips. As yet, just not realistic for those whose driving includes a lot of long inter city and rural trips.

Unigate, Express Dairies et al used electric milk floats to deliver doorstep milk in the UK for decades. A good use of the electric concept then, even back in the 70's when I were a lad.

Geektastic

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#2044541 27-Jun-2018 08:26

Linuxluver:
Geektastic:

We just bought a Volvo XC 70 D5.

I flew up to Auckland to get it. I drove back to home, about 800km, and still had enough left for another 360km.

No, I won't be buying a battery car any time soon.

When they get to 1000km range and 3 minute charging, I will look again.

I can understand that thinking if you do a daily 1000km commute.

But having to stop for 30 minutes every 3-4 hours is less than you're supposed to do for road safety....and it would only be 5 times a year on the handful of longer trips.

Hardly an excuse to screw up your kids (and everyone else') future by being SO UNWILLING to reduce your CO2 emissions.

A lot of people just don't understand how serious this is already.

It's understandable......the damage being done now will be felt most in 20 years. That's just too abstract for most people. Some people even still smoke cigarettes....than they are well known to lead to painful, scary rotting death.

Probably the best example is the tsunami in Japan in 2011. Despite being taught all their lives to head for the hills after a big quake....and then txt messages....and sirens.....a lot of people died anyway.

The people in these cars just didn't understand the danger was minutes way.....and for climate change? Years or decades....but just as certain. But it won't be you. It will be your kids and theirs.

https://youtu.be/noq8FYvRqgs

Not mine. I did my service to the planet by not adding to the population, which will achieve far more over the long term than changing my car.

kryptonjohn

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#2044542 27-Jun-2018 08:26

Linuxluver:

Geektastic:

We just bought a Volvo XC 70 D5.

I flew up to Auckland to get it. I drove back to home, about 800km, and still had enough left for another 360km.

No, I won't be buying a battery car any time soon.

When they get to 1000km range and 3 minute charging, I will look again.

I can understand that thinking if you do a daily 1000km commute.

But having to stop for 30 minutes every 3-4 hours is less than you're supposed to do for road safety....and it would only be 5 times a year on the handful of longer trips.

Hardly an excuse to screw up your kids (and everyone else') future by being SO UNWILLING to reduce your CO2 emissions.

A lot of people just don't understand how serious this is already.

It's understandable......the damage being done now will be felt most in 20 years. That's just too abstract for most people. Some people even still smoke cigarettes....than they are well known to lead to painful, scary rotting death.

Probably the best example is the tsunami in Japan in 2011. Despite being taught all their lives to head for the hills after a big quake....and then txt messages....and sirens.....a lot of people died anyway.

The people in these cars just didn't understand the danger was minutes way.....and for climate change? Years or decades....but just as certain. But it won't be you. It will be your kids and theirs.

https://youtu.be/noq8FYvRqgs

Yes, but we've been told about how much CO2 emissions need to decrease... well my families' vehicle sourced CO2 emissions have probably reduced by 30-40% since 1990 on account of driving an extremely economical diesel vehicle instead of a relatively thirsty petrol vehicle.

Sure, en EV is much better (as long as the electricity isn't generated from coal at a distant generator) but there's no point in having a discussion if it isn't realistic or significant in the larger scheme.

CO2 emissions worldwide from solid fuel are significantly higher than those from liquid fuels. The worldwide energy sector is by far the largest emitter - about 4 times that of transport. Cars are only a fraction of transport. Mom and pop driving their car is a small part of the overall CO2 profile.

https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas-emissions

NzBeagle

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#2044546 27-Jun-2018 08:30

Geektastic: Unigate, Express Dairies et al used electric milk floats to deliver doorstep milk in the UK for decades. A good use of the electric concept then, even back in the 70's when I were a lad.

It's great to see the likes of Waste Management investing in this now, benefit of no diesel, and the bonus of quieter rubbish collection vehicles.

Where the application is fit for purpose, then all for it, they're selecting runs where they can spec the unit appropriately.

Geektastic

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#2044547 27-Jun-2018 08:31

kryptonjohn:
Linuxluver:

Geektastic:

We just bought a Volvo XC 70 D5.

I flew up to Auckland to get it. I drove back to home, about 800km, and still had enough left for another 360km.

No, I won't be buying a battery car any time soon.

When they get to 1000km range and 3 minute charging, I will look again.

I can understand that thinking if you do a daily 1000km commute.

But having to stop for 30 minutes every 3-4 hours is less than you're supposed to do for road safety....and it would only be 5 times a year on the handful of longer trips.

Hardly an excuse to screw up your kids (and everyone else') future by being SO UNWILLING to reduce your CO2 emissions.

A lot of people just don't understand how serious this is already.

It's understandable......the damage being done now will be felt most in 20 years. That's just too abstract for most people. Some people even still smoke cigarettes....than they are well known to lead to painful, scary rotting death.

Probably the best example is the tsunami in Japan in 2011. Despite being taught all their lives to head for the hills after a big quake....and then txt messages....and sirens.....a lot of people died anyway.

The people in these cars just didn't understand the danger was minutes way.....and for climate change? Years or decades....but just as certain. But it won't be you. It will be your kids and theirs.

https://youtu.be/noq8FYvRqgs

Yes, but we've been told about how much CO2 emissions need to decrease... well my families' vehicle sourced CO2 emissions have probably reduced by 30-40% since 1990 on account of driving an extremely economical diesel vehicle instead of a relatively thirsty petrol vehicle.

Sure, en EV is much better (as long as the electricity isn't generated from coal at a distant generator) but there's no point in having a discussion if it isn't realistic or significant in the larger scheme.

CO2 emissions worldwide from solid fuel are significantly higher than those from liquid fuels. The worldwide energy sector is by far the largest emitter - about 4 times that of transport. Cars are only a fraction of transport. Mom and pop driving their car is a small part of the overall CO2 profile.

https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas-emissions

Also the Volvo is 3 years old. The emissions etc caused by its manufacture are now shared amongst the two owners. No doubt there will be more down the line. Buying a new Tesla or whatever would have added a whole mass of new ones as well as some fairly unpleasant battery chemistry to the world.

alasta

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#2044567 27-Jun-2018 08:52

Can you Aucklanders please stop assuming that everyone uses their cars to ‘commute’.

On Monday night I went for a demonstration ride on an electric double decker bus. That will be my commute as they roll out in Wellington over the next few weeks.

For long distance travel my diesel vehicle still makes sense. I expect it will be another 5-10 years before an electric vehicle is viable for me.

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kryptonjohn

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#2044573 27-Jun-2018 08:59

alasta: Can you Aucklanders please stop assuming that everyone uses their cars to ‘commute’.

On Monday night I went for a demonstration ride on an electric double decker bus. That will be my commute as they roll out in Wellington over the next few weeks.

For long distance travel my diesel vehicle still makes sense. I expect it will be another 5-10 years before an electric vehicle is viable for me.

Wellington has a higher use of PT than Auckland:

http://archive.stats.govt.nz/Census/2013-census/profile-and-summary-reports/commuting-patterns-wtn/working-in-wellington.aspx

http://archive.stats.govt.nz/Census/2013-census/profile-and-summary-reports/commuting-patterns-auckland/commuting-modes.aspx

Wellington has higher "employment density" so I think it's just a better case for PT than spread-out Auckland. But even in Wellington most people are commuting in cars (65% in 2013).

MikeAqua

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#2044596 27-Jun-2018 09:26

Mazda just bought out a new diesel SUV. The CX-8. Interesting move as the previous release was the CX-9 and it only came out in petrol. But it's 2T towing capacity made in non-competitive.

Mike

MikeAqua

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#2044607 27-Jun-2018 09:40

Linuxluver:

But having to stop for 30 minutes every 3-4 hours is less than you're supposed to do for road safety....

You keep saying that but can you point to a NZ statute that specifies such requirements for private use of light vehicle?

The rules for heavy vehicles are 5 hours then a break. But as far as I know those rules don't apply to private drivers in light vehicles.

Also .... any legal and/or safety requirements regarding driving duration are satisfied by a quick change of driver.

Mike

Geektastic

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#2044616 27-Jun-2018 10:01

kryptonjohn:

Linuxluver:

Geektastic:

We just bought a Volvo XC 70 D5.

I flew up to Auckland to get it. I drove back to home, about 800km, and still had enough left for another 360km.

No, I won't be buying a battery car any time soon.

When they get to 1000km range and 3 minute charging, I will look again.

I can understand that thinking if you do a daily 1000km commute.

But having to stop for 30 minutes every 3-4 hours is less than you're supposed to do for road safety....and it would only be 5 times a year on the handful of longer trips.

Hardly an excuse to screw up your kids (and everyone else') future by being SO UNWILLING to reduce your CO2 emissions.

A lot of people just don't understand how serious this is already.

It's understandable......the damage being done now will be felt most in 20 years. That's just too abstract for most people. Some people even still smoke cigarettes....than they are well known to lead to painful, scary rotting death.

Probably the best example is the tsunami in Japan in 2011. Despite being taught all their lives to head for the hills after a big quake....and then txt messages....and sirens.....a lot of people died anyway.

The people in these cars just didn't understand the danger was minutes way.....and for climate change? Years or decades....but just as certain. But it won't be you. It will be your kids and theirs.

https://youtu.be/noq8FYvRqgs

Yes, but we've been told about how much CO2 emissions need to decrease... well my families' vehicle sourced CO2 emissions have probably reduced by 30-40% since 1990 on account of driving an extremely economical diesel vehicle instead of a relatively thirsty petrol vehicle.

Sure, en EV is much better (as long as the electricity isn't generated from coal at a distant generator) but there's no point in having a discussion if it isn't realistic or significant in the larger scheme.

CO2 emissions worldwide from solid fuel are significantly higher than those from liquid fuels. The worldwide energy sector is by far the largest emitter - about 4 times that of transport. Cars are only a fraction of transport. Mom and pop driving their car is a small part of the overall CO2 profile.

https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-other-greenhouse-gas-emissions

Agreed. It would make a much greater contribution if we were subsidised to fit solar panels to our homes, or solar water heating. However, neither of those things have expensive, skilled political lobbying behind them to encourage us to buy new shiny ones...!

MikeAqua

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#2044631 27-Jun-2018 10:24

alasta:

For long distance travel my diesel vehicle still makes sense. I expect it will be another 5-10 years before an electric vehicle is viable for me.

I'm thinking the same. In our case it's for towing.

If an EV could be charged in <10minutes and reasonably priced it would be appealing.

Mike

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#2044644 27-Jun-2018 10:55

@Mikeaqua agreed the notion of resting in this scenario for the average driver is not really a big factor. Most drives that the average kiwi takes even on holiday are short to medium, that is somewhere around 400-550km. Given the state of our roads that would mean lunch break is in there somewhere anyway. As for trips say from Auckland to Wellington something I have only done a handful of times would require rests for meals and in my case at least 5 or 6 toilet breaks. It is recommended, not in law but common sense that a driver should rest every 2 hours or 100km . It is possible to factor in rest breaks with battery charges.

On a trip from Wellington to Taupo or Napier I would stop at least 3 times plus a lunch break. I would stop more often when towing the boat.

MikeAqua

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#2044679 27-Jun-2018 11:57

MikeB4:

I would stop more often when towing the boat.

Interesting. I stop less often when towing the boat, mainly because it's so frickin difficult to get a park.

I'm mentioning this because it raises an interesting issue in relation to EVs as tow vehicles. Most charging points I have noticed are single vehicle parks and often angle parks too. How would you get on if your EV was towing a trailer?

Un-hitching and re-hitching the trailer at every charge (~2 hourly if towing) would be quite a rigmarole.

I imagine things like motorway service centres could easily make provision. But other places will struggle. We are (from memory) 13m from the front bumper to the skegs on the outboards'. It can be hard enough to get into and out of regular service stations.

Mike

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#2044710 27-Jun-2018 12:49

MikeAqua:

MikeB4:

I would stop more often when towing the boat.

Interesting. I stop less often when towing the boat, mainly because it's so frickin difficult to get a park.

I'm mentioning this because it raises an interesting issue in relation to EVs as tow vehicles. Most charging points I have noticed are single vehicle parks and often angle parks too. How would you get on if your EV was towing a trailer?

Un-hitching and re-hitching the trailer at every charge (~2 hourly if towing) would be quite a rigmarole.

I imagine things like motorway service centres could easily make provision. But other places will struggle. We are (from memory) 13m from the front bumper to the skegs on the outboards'. It can be hard enough to get into and out of regular service stations.

Where we most often took the Stabi was Napier, Taupo or the Rotorua Lakes and there are quite a few places to stop and rest.Towing boats and caravans falls out of the general transport category and would be a real pain trying to charge an EV, one caveat though, if I could convince my wife a Jaguar I-Pace would do the trick I would find a way.

The more diesel city cars and vehicles that really don't need to be diesel go off the road means the fuel will last longer for those engines and circumstances that diesel is a must.

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