EU Bans ICE cars from 2035. June 29 2022

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#2937210 1-Jul-2022 15:54

Out of all the times to make this decision....

Was talking with a client in Germany last night. Germany first shut down their nuclear power plants and have now decided to cut themselves off from the alternative they literally started their own addiction to (Russian gas). They are expecting mass power cuts this coming winter in their so called "1st world country". He is upset because he just bought an electric car and is expecting power prices to go >$1.00NZD KW/h. Paying maybe 3x + as much for the electric car than a petroleum powered car and not even getting cheaper costs of running it.

What's it going to be like for Romanians with maybe $10,000 - $20,000USD annual income now having to buy their EV that is 3x the price of the petroleum powered alternative?

it's going to annoy a lot of people in the EU. These kinds of decisions and impact on the common man lead to political turmoil.

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#2937221 1-Jul-2022 16:20

i think they will just import old gas cars from anywhere around the world. just can't sell new ones right?

or civil war in the EU

Tinkerisk

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#2937223 1-Jul-2022 16:23

Zeon:

What's it going to be like for Romanians with maybe $10,000 - $20,000USD annual income now having to buy their EV that is 3x the price of the petroleum powered alternative?

it's going to annoy a lot of people in the EU. These kinds of decisions and impact on the common man lead to political turmoil.

Sorry, but that cannot be generalized. In Romania you can still find donkey carts on the road and an EV is a privilege of the rich (who can pay for it). It will certainly not be easy and the decisions seem to be contrary. But we Germans complain at a very high level - nobody will freeze to death here. I hope for the Romanians with this annual income that they haven't thrown away their old kilns with wood from the forest and haven't turned their donkeys into salami (I don't mean that sarcastically!).

Wages also adjust fairly quickly within the EU countries and there are still a few years to go before the changeover. I'm afraid the current situation with Russia and the long-term strategy up to 2035 are also being wildly confused here. In any case, the transitions are fluid, there will be no abrupt shutdown of the ICEs (as is currently the case with Russian gas).

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#2937224 1-Jul-2022 16:28

apparently hydrogen suddenly could become feasible thanks to the EU

Tinkerisk

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#2937227 1-Jul-2022 16:38

Batman:

apparently hydrogen suddenly could become feasible thanks to the EU

I really, really hope. As mentioned before, I can confirm a lot of development efforts (at least for aviation and ships or vessels).

I own an ICE for long distances, an Twizy for local distances, a bicycle, shoes and use public transportation adapted to the needs. The Twizy EV is only a gimmick to gather experiences - it‘s funny but batteries are NOT the future.

When a hydrogen car with an acceptable operational range is available, I‘d immediately sell the ICE and the Twizy. Or as a car sharing project, if you like, without actually buying the car.

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#2937229 1-Jul-2022 16:58

Tinkerisk:

Sorry, but that cannot be generalized.

You mean like you just did with the situation in New Zealand?

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#2937230 1-Jul-2022 16:58

well our bosses are all in on hydrogen

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-hydrogen-powered-car-sharing-scheme-on-first-day-in-japan.html

"This is the way of the future"

maybe they know something about our electricity grid

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#2937233 1-Jul-2022 17:12

Batman:

well our bosses are all in on hydrogen

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-hydrogen-powered-car-sharing-scheme-on-first-day-in-japan.html

"This is the way of the future"

maybe they know something about our electricity grid

Where are you going to get this hydrogen from, if not electrolysis? Meanwhile, battery technologies continue to improve.

Tinkerisk

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#2937236 1-Jul-2022 17:17

Dingbatt:

Tinkerisk:

Sorry, but that cannot be generalized.

You mean like you just did with the situation in New Zealand?

If you want me to comment on that, you'll have to be more specific. I referred to a government report and merely stated that you do not manufacture what this is about. Or do you develop and build your own BMWs, Daimlers, VWs, Porsches, Airbuses, tanks, turbine shafts, power plants and Bosch kitchen appliances?

Tinkerisk

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#2937283 1-Jul-2022 17:26

Batman:

well our bosses are all in on hydrogen

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-hydrogen-powered-car-sharing-scheme-on-first-day-in-japan.html

"This is the way of the future"

maybe they know something about our electricity grid

I know, and Hamburg is nowadays ‚Germany‘s hydrogen city.‘ We have some public ‚hydrogen gas stations‘, public fuel cell bus lines, engines and more important the infrastructure and distribution in (currently small scale) operation. And a lot is still ongoing. Nothing to be ready for your next car purchase within two or three years but every journey begins with a small step.

@Frankv

Agreed and it will improve for sure as well. But don‘t forget the production of this sophisticated batteries and what they are made from.

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#2937285 1-Jul-2022 17:30

Batman:
well our bosses are all in on hydrogen

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/04/prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-announces-hydrogen-powered-car-sharing-scheme-on-first-day-in-japan.html

Hardly all in. This is similar to Toyota's Mirai trials elsewhere in the world.

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#2937290 1-Jul-2022 17:55

Tinkerisk:

If you want me to comment on that, you'll have to be more specific. I referred to a government report and merely stated that you do not manufacture what this is about. Or do you develop and build your own BMWs, Daimlers, VWs, Porsches, Airbuses, tanks, turbine shafts, power plants and Bosch kitchen appliances?

A cut and paste of your earlier post

“The "Environment Aotearoa" report is no comic book, and its findings could not be further from the picture that the "Pure New Zealand" marketing campaign tried to paint with glossy images of untouched natural landscapes. There it becomes clear that you are struggling with polluted waters, species extinction, the consequences of urbanisation and the spread of the dairy industry, and have already lost significant amounts of forest.”

You may as well have quoted a Greenpeace pamphlet.

Germany makes all those wonderful machines (or gets them manufactured somewhere in the world) but when it struggles to provide enough energy to stop people freezing to death or cook food next winter, I guess those wonderful factories will keep producing those cars, aircraft and kitchen appliances regardless.

Meanwhile we'll carry on struggling through with our 85% renewable electricity and if necessary dip into our 1000 year supply of coal to make up the other 15%. All paid for by our CO2 consuming primary industries. All from a population 2.5 times the size of your city (which I assume is responsible for all the cars, aircraft, appliances,etc).

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Tinkerisk

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#2937346 1-Jul-2022 18:12

Dingbatt:

You may as well have quoted a Greenpeace pamphlet.

You should know what we are talking about: https://environment.govt.nz/publications/environment-aotearoa-2022/ and use less polemic.

Germany makes all those wonderful machines (or gets them manufactured somewhere in the world) but when it struggles to provide enough energy to stop people freezing to death or cook food next winter, I guess those wonderful factories will keep producing those cars, aircraft and kitchen appliances regardless.

No doubt, we will. No matter what they sell you in wonderful, colorful and lurid tabloids on the other side of the world and as a circulation.

„Meanwhile we'll carry on struggling through with our 85% renewable electricity and if necessary dip into our 1000 year supply of coal to make up the other 15%. All paid for by our CO2 consuming primary industries.“

Yes, but that has never been doubted. I think it makes a difference in the EU to provide 450 million people with work, energy and technology or to let 5 million on an island dream of total independence and not bother them playing with the water wheel (ok, that was now polemic from me).

;-)

Mattnzl

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#2937404 2-Jul-2022 09:02

Tinkerisk:

If you want me to comment on that, you'll have to be more specific. I referred to a government report and merely stated that you do not manufacture what this is about. Or do you develop and build your own BMWs, Daimlers, VWs, Porsches, Airbuses, tanks, turbine shafts, power plants and Bosch kitchen appliances?

I think what @Tinkerisk is getting at is that NZ has exported/outsourced almost all manufacturing to other countries eg: China (almost everything), Thailand (Utes), Japan (new/used cars), Taiwan (electronics) etc.

And so while we feel a bit smug at our 80-90% renewable electricity usage, this is only possible due to other countries producing goods (using energy & creating pollution) for us.

And yet even with that massive outsourcing, we are still confronting environmental degradation and high CO2 output per-capita in NZ.

Dingbatt

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#2937411 2-Jul-2022 10:19

And my point (to pull it back to the thread topic) is that well meaning ideology-driven proclamations can have unintended consequences. Hence Germany’s decision to forego nuclear power and rely on Russian gas has left it vulnerable.

By the same token the EU proclaiming that vehicles must be electrified by 2035 at best means they require their member nations to forego any sales to nations that don’t have the infrastructure to support EVs. Or at worst, smacks of colonial imperialism where they (the European powers) believe they have the right to dictate to the rest of the world what they must do. A world where 30% of people rely on animal dung or charcoal for their heating and cooking and get by on less electricity than a fridge uses each day.

They are surrendering their auto industries to other nations that will continue to build EVs AND ICE vehicles.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

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