NZ Employment Court: Uber drivers are employees and not independent contracors

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › NZ Employment Court: Uber drivers are employees and not independent contracors

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johno1234

2793 posts

Uber Geek

#2990257 31-Oct-2022 19:30

toejam316:

frankv:

Well, no. It loops us back to paying a reasonable amount for a service. Maybe we'll lose a few unviable services. If Uber has to screw its drivers over so that you and I can have a cheap ride home from the pub, I'm happy to kiss it goodbye.

I have no problem with gaining the convenience of the gig economy, and certainly the taxi company prices were way out of line, but liberalising employment laws is the wrong thing thing to do when sharks like Uber & McDs & the like infest our waters.

Easy agree - look at the US Employment market to see what liberalizing employment means, the likes of Amazon and McDonalds are consistently delivering below (our) minimum for their employees there. Humanity and compassion is for the humans, not the businesses.

Nothing has changed re minimum wages in the States. Waiters, taxi drivers and other tip based jobs pay under $10 an hour and always have been very very low paid. Long, long before the likes of Amazon. MacDonalds waiters get paid more than restaurant waiters hourly but make much less money because tips are astronomical for good staff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,increase%20cash%20wages%20to%20compensate.

Handle9

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#2990267 31-Oct-2022 19:36

johno1234:
toejam316:

Easy agree - look at the US Employment market to see what liberalizing employment means, the likes of Amazon and McDonalds are consistently delivering below (our) minimum for their employees there. Humanity and compassion is for the humans, not the businesses.

Nothing has changed re minimum wages in the States. Waiters, taxi drivers and other tip based jobs pay under $10 an hour and always have been very very low paid. Long, long before the likes of Amazon. MacDonalds waiters get paid more than restaurant waiters hourly but make much less money because tips are astronomical for good staff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage#:~:text=The%20United%20States%20of%20America,increase%20cash%20wages%20to%20compensate.

You’ve missed the point that was made - that US style
Employment law isn’t desirable.

johno1234

2793 posts

Uber Geek

#2990274 31-Oct-2022 20:07

Handle9:

You’ve missed the point that was made - that US style
Employment law isn’t desirable.

No I did not miss the point. I was commenting on the suggestion that employment liberalisation/MacDonalds/Amazon had caused USA minimum rates to drop below our minimum wage, which is incorrect. Is that OK?

gzt

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#2990277 31-Oct-2022 20:16

I'm not exactly following the debate but I do know USA federal minimum wage is US$7.25 unchanged since 2009!!. Around half of the states peg to the federal minimum. Some states have a local minimum double that. Wyoming allows US$5.25 for some employees. I expect there's other legal ways to go below minimum there too.

johno1234

2793 posts

Uber Geek

#2990279 31-Oct-2022 20:22

gzt: I'm not exactly following the debate but I do know USA federal minimum wage is US$7.25 unchanged since 2009!!. Around half of the states peg to the federal minimum. Some states have a local minimum double that. Wyoming allows US$5.25 for some employees. I expect there's other legal ways to go below minimum there too.

Yeah. It's why taxi drivers and waiters get seriously pissy if you don't tip them as expected.

gzt

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#2990283 31-Oct-2022 20:27

I see. Federal minimum for tip earners is $2.13 per hour. Ouch.

johno1234

2793 posts

Uber Geek

#2990288 31-Oct-2022 20:43

gzt: I see. Federal minimum for tip earners is $2.13 per hour. Ouch.

On the other hand, with the almost mandatory 18-20% tip, on our recent Hawaii vacation we were routinely leaving US$150 tips for our table of 8. Very good money for those waiters (shared with others but even so).

I expect those good waiters would not want to convert to a strictly hourly wage and I expect that many Uber drivers do not want to be employees and have to work fixed hours either.

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toejam316

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#2990301 31-Oct-2022 21:05

There's absolutely no reason you can't tip for exceptional service, the issue is that tips shouldn't be expected. And regarding my earlier comment RE: US minimum wage, I was more referring to the fact that the wages remain static and low, because there's no factors pushing them up. The businesses lobby to keep minimum wage low, inflation goes up, and people work these entry level jobs while claiming food stamps, often more than one of them. That isn't the New Zealand I wish to see, and the whole "contractor who only does work for us" is a rort.

As a former Chorus tech, I'm pretty intimately familiar with just how ridiculous those operations can get, and the reality is that for every individual who's creaming it under that system, you've got many more struggling along. If the business can't afford to run without exploiting the people they're paying to do their core business, the business model is broken. Side stepping legal obligations by claiming someone is a contractor doesn't fix the problem, it just shifts it from the operator to the worker.

Capitalism needs a leash, and America is what happens when you don't give it the occasional tug.

Anything I say is the ramblings of an ill informed, opinionated so-and-so, and not representative of any of my past, present or future employers, and is also probably best disregarded.

johno1234

2793 posts

Uber Geek

#2990309 31-Oct-2022 21:21

I agree about the tipping... I really dislike the tipping culture. Why do I have to performance review and remunerate the staff - that's the manager's job!

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2990710 1-Nov-2022 17:33

johno1234:

I agree about the tipping... I really dislike the tipping culture. Why do I have to performance review and remunerate the staff - that's the manager's job!

I find tipping a bit awkward, but you seem to get good service in the US, IME. Unlike NZ with a higher minimum wage, where it's 50:50 whether dietary requirements communicated to wait staff will be adhered to.

The efficiency with which a good waiter/waitress in the US operates is impressive. A US waiter/waitress will deliver some drinks, take an order and bus some dishes all in the one trip. In the US my drink will never go dry before a top up is offered. In NZ a waiter/waitress will do three trips for that. You could die of thirst in an NZ restaurant, and no-one would notice.

Mike

Geektastic

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#2990790 1-Nov-2022 22:28

Kyanar:
Geektastic:

I’m not sure I agree that the purpose of courts is to determine parliamentary intent. It’s to interpret law as it is written not guess what it may have meant.

No. Courts have to determine intent because by necessity, legislation is often ambiguous or intentionally vague. Common law is literally built entirely off precedent set by courts interpreting and reinterpreting past law and precedent.

Literalism always leads to a very bad time.

Not exactly but sort of. Courts will assiduously avoid interpreting legislation unless a statute can be interpreted in more than one way.

Governments generally seek to pass laws that accurately reflect the wishes and intent of the elected body making them. Generally, allowing courts to simply interpret law to suit themselves is not a deliberate act, although it certainly arises through poor drafting of bills etc. Indeed, there are many instances in which law makers revisit Acts and revise them to correct errors that have resulted from case law decisions which they regard as being at variance with their intent.

The alternative is to end up with judicial activism. Personally, I prefer judicial restraint.

frankv

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#2990834 2-Nov-2022 08:09

MikeAqua:

The efficiency with which a good waiter/waitress in the US operates is impressive. A US waiter/waitress will deliver some drinks, take an order and bus some dishes all in the one trip. In the US my drink will never go dry before a top up is offered.

Agree. But waiter/waitress is a long-term job in US & Europe, unlike NZ.

Incidentally, research says that the best tips don't go to the most efficient/courteous waiter. They go to the blonde with the big owls.

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2990836 2-Nov-2022 08:12

frankv:

They go to the blonde with the big owls.

Blonds with big owls need income too. Do you know many mice an owl eats every year?

Mike

frankv

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#2990840 2-Nov-2022 08:19

MikeAqua:

frankv:

They go to the blonde with the big owls.

Blonds with big owls need income too. Do you know many mice an owl eats every year?

Right. But the idea that tips encourage efficiency is flawed.

MikeAqua

7773 posts

Uber Geek

#2990867 2-Nov-2022 09:12

frankv:

Right. But the idea that tips encourage efficiency is flawed.

Not necessarily. There will almost certainly be more than one factor operating.

Attractiveness as a factor? Sure, I totally accept that. But among attractive people efficiency may still attract higher tips.

Mike

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